Benji Miller: The ways that we infuse the humanity into the systems and the way that we use systems to make sure that we're doing the things with the culture and the people that we want to be doing, that's where it gets beautiful and you create a superior competitive advantage. Tim Spiker: A business without systems can't be efficient and a business without a soul can't be inspiring, but a business with both, now that business has the opportunity to fulfill its full potential. I'm your host, Tim Spiker, and this is the Be Worth* Following Podcast, a production of the People Forward Network. On this show, we talk with exceptional leaders, thinkers, and researchers about what actually drives effective leadership across the globe and over time. You just heard from Benj Miller, he and Chris White are the founders of System & Soul. Tim Spiker: That is the very app name of their exceptional organizational operating framework that focuses on both the processes and purposes of the businesses they advise. In the world of Benj, Chris and their clients, organizational habits and practices must fuel both the productivity of the organization and what makes that organization a place worth coming to work for? We started our conversation by talking about the leaders who made an impact on Benj and Chris. And right out of the gate, Benj throws a curve ball, he talked about how he has based his own success as an entrepreneur on a terrible leader, he had the opportunity to personally follow. Benji Miller: The number one biggest impact for me was when I was 22 years old, I moved to Atlanta to take a job with a creative agency here in Atlanta. And the impression that was made was almost exclusively negative. But when you ask about the most impressionable leader I've ever worked for, there was so much that I learned about what not to do that inspired me to go lead an organization. And I literally just used him as a model. What's the opposite- Tim Spiker: Did you just take everything that he did and do it the opposite, was that basically- Benji Miller: I did. It was a recipe for success. One of my mantras that got me through early years of entrepreneurship was if that guy could be successful, how much more could I be successful if I do things the right way? And so he was a model for success, all I had to do was the opposite. Tim Spiker: That's really amazing. It actually points out something that's important I think for all of us to keep in mind around leadership, which is you can make money without being an exceptional leader. We shouldn't lose sight of that, but it's impossible to reach our potential without being an exceptional leader. And so those things go hand in hand. Tell us maybe one of the particular I'm never going to do that, or I'm definitely going to do that, that you learned in the opposite of what you experienced from that leader. Benji Miller: I think it boiled down to two things, for him he had a deep need to be the center of attention, and that's both from a charismatic standpoint, but also the business needed to revolve around him and serve him. And so really it was all about him, which just makes you feel like a tool serving someone else, zero regard for my career, my feelings, my aptitude, growing me as a leader, any of that. The second thing was just, I'm sure it flowed out of the first, but was really how he treated people, which was, I think maybe in retrospect thinking about it for half a second, it was really that it needed to be about him, which meant that every conversation he'd have with you was really about him. Benji Miller: And even if he was giving you something that you could use as constructive criticism, it was hard to take because there was so much of his emotional needs flowing out of that conversation. So it was really hard to feel like there was anything being invested in me as a person and there wasn't any comradery in the organization. The culture was every man for themselves, perform or get lost, which I loved. I loved performing, that part was not the issue, but I wanted a place where I belonged and I was part of something, more purpose driven in the organization and for myself. Tim Spiker: I think the two things you're expressing there while they're certainly interconnected are on different planes, because when something has to revolve around the leader, as you're describing, there is a strategic and business impact to that from an ideation standpoint, from an execution standpoint, that depresses the number of great ideas that can show up in an organization. But that second part that you're expressing is what does it feel like to be here every day? And so, yes, they're very connected to one another, but those are two different impacts, both of which are obviously negative. So thanks for that. Chris, how about you, who comes to mind when we talk about the leaders that have had the biggest impact for you? Chris White: I wrote down several names and at the top are my grandfather and father, so I'm from a multi-generational entrepreneurial family. And so my early impressions to leadership were dictatorship. My dad was working on the books and you happened to walk in his office, he'd close the books and okay, what do you need? And so when I got out in the workforce, the one that stands out the most for me, well, I was a Motorola salesman, selling two-way radios to public safety, paper mills, that kind of stuff. And I had a great boss and what made them great, they trained me up, you go to Motorola University in Schaumburg, Illinois, and then you go back to your territory. And my boss really did a good job of onboarding me, of setting expectations and then cutting me loose. Chris White: He gave me autonomy pretty quickly, but in the beginning I used to think it was like, man, how come he doesn't call me or why doesn't he check up on me? He used to spend so much time with me in the beginning, but he was giving me that space to go out and be successful. Now the other side of that is at the end of that career, he was almost nonexistent. And I always used to think, man, it was such a great relationship in the beginning and I was getting trained and I don't know if he trusted me so much or if I mastered whatever I needed to master, but at the end of that engagement I thought, I think he did a disservice to me because he wasn't really engaged in any cadence that I could count on. I guess as long as I was hitting or exceeding my numbers, I was doing my job, but I got no further training. And that was kind of a let down for me. Tim Spiker: Yeah. It sounds like he had a great impact early on, but after that didn't really continue the investment, at least in the relationship. Even if he didn't think that he had a lot more to offer you on the sales development side, there is this just normal, natural, human thing around supportive relationships. Chris White: Yeah. And I don't want to make it sound like I lay all this blame on that particular boss, because I played an active role in that too. Maybe I should have asked more, maybe I should have communicated to him that says, "Hey, I really like our weekly, biweekly cadence. Can we stick with it?" So there was a responsibility on my part to request that like additional training. As I look back, I'm thinking they accelerated me quickly off the launchpad, but that sustainable growth pattern was really up to me. And I guess hitting number when you're winning, everything's great. Tim Spiker: Yes. Ws hide a multitude of sins. Chris White: Oh my gosh, yes. It's funny that you mentioned that. I was in session yesterday with a long term client at 20 year business and we had their strategy sessions and this particular client, they bring a pitch deck to our sessions and every executive owns slides in the deck. And that's how they spin everybody up to get them on the same page to start the day. And the owner visionary started the day with this quote, "Good profits can cover up our sins, shortcomings, weaknesses, and failures. Losing money, only magnifies them." Tim Spiker: It's true. And it's one of the challenging disciplines of leadership is how do we continue to have focus and growth when times are great. Let's fast forward to today. You guys right now where you sit, you have founded and run System & Soul. You previously had a really successful podcast called Tractionville, and a lot of that was centered around the idea of EOS. Now, many people are familiar with EOS, but for those who don't, I'm going to let Benj and Chris describe it because these guys are professionals with EOS. And now they have taken the EOS concepts of execution, put them on steroids and brought them into this idea of System & Soul. Benji Miller: So Chris White is like OGEOS, I think the third cohort to go through training. That's how we met. I was in my entrepreneurial season and I was introduced to EOS, it very much changed my life, my business, my trajectory. I'm very grateful for it. EOS is, they call it an operating system for your business, which is very much what we do at System & Soul. So we'll get into some of the differences there. But when we implemented it in my business, I was the Renegade entrepreneur, a million ideas, very soulful, cared a lot about culture and my people way more than I did accountability or having a system and a methodology for how we got stuff done. So when we were able to blend those two, it was magic. Fast forward, Chris and I met because there was no real technology to manage all of the stuff that EOS brought into the business. So we built some technology, we built a podcast, we wrote a book, all center around the EOS space. I'll plug the book, it's called The Clarity Field Guide. Tim Spiker: The Clarity Field Guide. Benji Miller: Yes. The answers no one else can give you. And then I became an EOS implementer, I was helping other companies and I loved it. What we found was it worked for me because I already had this soulful component to my organization. And so when we got into an organization and they don't have that soulful side and we're just bringing the systems, the processes, the scores, the accountability, what it does is... Actually like we were saying, losing money, magnifies that, when you elevate the processes, the system side of the business without elevating the soul, it just becomes more pressure and more almost, stoic's the wrong word as we know it today, but it just becomes almost without emotion to the business. And so we have the opportunity to infuse the two in System & Soul. So we have the only business framework that's built on the humanity of the organization. So the same timeless, proven principles are rolled in, but now we've added this other side and given equal focus to the soul. Benji Miller: So the soul in this context, we're talking about the identity of the organization, the culture that we're building, how do we set an intentionality and make that true? So actually having a strategy and an execution plan to the culture of the organization. And our view of leadership is that we can spend all the time in the world on the soft skills, the hard skills of leading, managing, but at the end of the day, 80% of it is self leadership. Who I show up with matters more than what I show up with to do. And that's obviously how we met and how we're so aligned in our thinking there. But it really comes down to who is the leader showing up in the room today? We all have good days and we all have bad days, but we're all on a journey. And so if we can encourage our people to be on that journey for themselves and maybe equip them with some tools and thinking along the way, then it's going to be the rising tide that lifts all the boats. Chris White: You mentioned soft skills and everybody was focused on the system side. And then they look at that people side or the soul side is like, eh, that soft stuff. We'll do some team things together, but let's stay over here on the system side. And obviously tons and tons of books have been written about it. And I guess we've all known it, it's like documenting processes. We know we need to do it, but we really don't slow down enough to actually tackle it because we think it's this huge lift, heavy burden when it's not. And I think the way entrepreneurs were looking at it, I don't think they realized you can design and engineer the culture that you want and you should. Chris White: So I remember when Benj called me and he is like, "Okay, listen, I think something's just been handed to me [inaudible] shoulder." And I said, "Okay, before you say anything, do you have a name?" And he goes, "I do." And I go, "Tell me the name first." And he said System & Soul and my jaw hit the floor. It painted a picture in my head, because we ran these parallel lives as entrepreneurs. And then at this point we came together and we know each other really well. And you build that trust, but man, when he just gave me the name, I'm like, that's it. Tim Spiker: Why did you ask for the name first? Chris White: I've been in business a long time. And it seems like the pandemic has gotten a bunch of other people spun up and there's all kind of coaching programs on Instagram and LinkedIn, they're all over the place. And I was like, gosh, it's more system, templates, process. It's like nobody is doing that stuff. We didn't do it in a very deep or meaningful way, in my opinion, at EOS. I've worked with over 150 companies, I'm approaching my 10,000 hours here. And it's just like he just filled a major gap with that name. I'm like, "That's the missing piece." And to this day, I think when people say, "Tell me about System & Soul," they really want to hear about the soul because nobody's talking in that way in their business. So I don't know, I asked it, he gave it to me and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, don't overthink it. That's the name." Tim Spiker: Benj had mentioned, Chris, that you're OGEOS. So what I want to hear from that a little bit is what was your journey getting to that space of really valuing that soul side, that culture side, that people side of the business? If it's not something that EOS had embedded in it, there must have been a bit of a journey where that became valuable to you in a way that EOS didn't hand to you. Chris White: Yeah. I recognized it within my first year of starting my coaching practice, with EOS we have a set amount of tools and it's the same tools. I had been an entrepreneur long before I met EOS. So I had certain tools that I relied on to address whatever people, process or profit. And so I started just putting myself out there and I send myself to some training every year, this year I'm in leadership training with a retired green beret getting that perspective. And we weren't given any of those resources or tools through the organization, so we all had to do it on our own. So me and another implementer formed a group called the Honey Badger Group, and it was a top tier implementers at the time. Tim Spiker: Hold on, Chris. Chris, you have to explain where are you, the Honey Badger Group. Chris White: Just go to YouTube and type in Honey Badger don't care. The idea is Honey Badgers are relentless, they're singularly focused and they're tenacious. Well, the group of people, and it was implementers, we were just at the top of our game at that point in our trajectory. And we weren't getting what we needed through the organization so we pooled our resources. One year we hired Steve Chandler from the Prosperous Coach series of books. And so I just filled that gap by going out and getting the training that I needed so that I could bring it back into the room to help my client. Benji Miller: Tim, I remember when early in our relationship, Chris leans over to me in the middle of a bigger meeting. He goes, "You know what we really do, don't you?" And I was like, "What?" I had no idea what he meant. He goes, "We're really like team health therapists under the guides of EOS." And I was like, it's kind of true because no corporate organization wants to hire somebody to work on their team health with their senior leadership team. But we get in there and we can almost internally laugh at the first couple sessions because we can see the future of their evolution, their journey, what they're going to look like and act like 3, 4, 5 quarters into this thing and almost get excited for them. That's what keeps us going is we can pre see the breakthrough that's coming in the middle of the chaos and complexity that they have in the moment. Chris White: The pandemic's just really put a focus now more so than any other time I can think of in my professional career around people. And I think it's fun and exciting and challenging, but they really understand now I think more so than ever, entrepreneurial business owners, is that it's one thing to say your people are your number one asset, but it's another thing to really invest in them. And I think System & Soul is the next evolution in business frameworks. There's been plenty of successful ones behind and we cite some of them, we taught some of them, but the people side was such a huge gap and the timing of everything going on in the economy, especially with small business owners. They hear the word System & Soul and they're just like, "Okay, tell me about that." Because it's about putting your people in sync with your design and that's how we can create harmony or breakthrough. Tim Spiker: One of the things that's great and we all three have the privilege of this, being in the consulting space, is that we get to be in and out of a lot of different companies. And you get to see a lot of different things, you get to see a lot of leaders. In some regards, I think that consulting is an unfair game because we're learning stuff all of the time and bringing it to the next client and learning more and bringing that to the next client. But when I think about what you mentioned a second ago, Benj, with regard to, as Chris leaned over you and said, "Hey, we're really team health coaches here under the guise of EOS." It makes me think immediately of Patrick Lencioni and The Advantage, and Rick Packer with the table group, he was on the show a few episodes ago. Tim Spiker: And we talked a lot about this idea around how organizational health really does trump everything because whatever problem you might have, if you have a healthy high functioning organization where the relationships are not getting in the way of the work and everybody's pulling in the same direction, there's a pretty good chance you're going to figure out your problems. So that's maybe oversimplified a little bit, but when I hear that, hey, we're going to come in and work on the system side. We're going to work on how you're organized, how you are leveraging process to stay focused on your key initiatives and all the things that come along with EOS. But oh, by the way, we're watching your team, we're watching your leadership, we're watching you interact. And that's what I'm hearing that the two of you through the soul side of System & Soul really bring into the equation right beside execution. Am I seeing that story accurately? Benji Miller: You're dead on, but there's one level deeper. Tim Spiker: All right, bring it. Benji Miller: So we can talk about team health and I love Lencioni's stuff's great. We use five dysfunctions all the time as an exercise we do in session. But in your lifetime, you have a 50% chance right now as an American of struggling with something to do with mental health. And every single year, one of the five people you work with is struggling with mental health. And 50% of our marriages end in divorce, and 70% of our men are struggling with some porn addiction. And so if you think that that doesn't come into the room as a business, when you're trying to think strategically, then you're asking people to leave themselves outside of the room. And when we ask them to do that, then we're not getting all of them. So this is where the self leadership comes in is helping people deal with all of themselves because there's no way the health of the team can ever exceed the health of the individuals. Tim Spiker: Can you say that again because that is something I want us to leave with as a marking idea here in our conversation. Say that again, if you could. Benji Miller: The health of the team cannot outpace the health of the individuals in the team. Tim Spiker: So even though the two of you are working with leadership teams, executive teams, and you're working on organizational things, at the same time, you're paying attention to the health of the individuals so far as you're able to observe it, is that right? Benji Miller: This happens with us too. Chris, I hope you don't mind me being very vulnerable on our behalf, but I just had the LP 360 done on myself, which is a 360 degree survey. It's got some narrative feedback and then it's got some insane levels of data. And me ranked with the 10,000 other leaders that have taken this assessment, I am in the 96 percentile of distant. My ability to create caring relationships or at least be seen to have caring relationships is very, very low. Some of it has to do with me being an introvert, some of it has me I'm pretty decisive in my decision making, not authoritative, but I don't often question myself. I've got an opinion, so we can go there and we can make a decision and move on. And some of these attributes makes me feel distant. Benji Miller: So I'm working on that. I've got to do better at bringing all of me because some of that distance that's created is in some way, Tim, I am protecting myself by being distant. I'm working on that, but that's what I'm bringing in. Chris is when he gets fired up about something, he gets passionate and not everybody can handle his passion. I'm cool with his passion because I know his heart, not everybody on our team is there yet. So when we bring those things, we show up with all that and that of affects the whole dynamic. And now it multiply because my unhealth plus Chris's unhealth has a multiplication effect, because there's that space between us. So we've got to keep working on the Benj and the Chris in order to keep working on the senior leadership team at System and Soul. Tim Spiker: Wow. I really appreciate how you wove all that together. And it's really interesting to me. We look back at management and leadership mantras and perspectives over the years, maybe go back about 20 years or so, but we don't have to go back 100 years to a time when we were saying to people, "Bring all of your very best, except not that personal stuff." And it's like, well wait a second, that doesn't work, that's impossible. If you're asking somebody to bring the very best of who they are, that is going to include the energy in the tank, which has some type of emotional component too. But please don't let us see anything negative, please don't let us see anything that's unfinished. What you're describing is we can't do that, we're going to ask people to bring all that they have. We need to also understand that if we do that, all that they are is going to show up and that's going to give us lots of stuff to work on. Chris White: Well, you got to give permission to come in and you're making a commitment to yourself and to your teammates. I'm going to be open and honest, I'm going to be candid, I'm not going to mince words or tell big stories, I'm going to try to get to the root of it. But asking a human to not be emotional, that's not going to work. Especially in the session room, we say be real, be authentic, be yourself. Well, that includes all of who you are inside and outside the organization and that's what I want. When we can get there, you reach a really strong, meaningful level of vulnerability based trust. Chris White: And you have to be willing to go there, but we're all on a different journey. When you come together in the session room, Benj might be tight lipped and I might be doing all the talking. And as coaches, we're really managing the human energy in the room and we have to look at them collectively, but we also have to look at them individually in order to really bring the value and really pull everything out of them. I want all of you bring your emotions, bring your passions and we just have to manage it so it doesn't get messy. Benji Miller: Like you said, Tim, if you look back, we didn't want any of this in the workplace. And there's definitely almost this progressive movement toward just be exactly who you are and screw everybody else. That's not what I'm saying either, that's not healthy either the whole like, "Well, that's just how I am. You have to accept it," finger snap, eye roll. That's not healthy, that's not really who you are. That's the mask that you're projecting to keep yourself safe. Tim Spiker: As I hear all that, the word that comes to mind is while emotion and humanity is going to be in any executive team and that you don't want people checking a third of themselves and not bringing it into the room. We still want to be moving towards emotional maturity, which is to say I have those emotions, but I express them in a way that is constructive. I think to add a little story and see if this connects with what you're talking about. Colleague of mine, Mary Shippy, she gets quoted a lot Dr. Shippy because she has influenced me in so many ways. But one of the stories that she taught me is this idea of oil. And when it comes out of the ground, what do we call it? It's called crude oil. It's crude, it's not in a very usable form. And then that oil goes into what? It goes into a refinery. Tim Spiker: And it goes through that process where the oil is refined. Now there's a number of different products that come out of the backside of that refinery, but one of them is called oil. And so the idea is it went in as oil, it came out as oil, but the crudeness of the initial product gets refined. And when it's refined and it comes out the other side, now you have this incredibly valuable substance that literally powers things. And so we do want you to be who you are, but all of us have some crude to that emotional side in most cases, whether it's too quiet or too loud or too whatever. We're not asking people to not be oil in this case, we're asking can we be emotionally mature so that what comes out of that is highly valuable, powerful, it can make things go. Benji Miller: Oh, I love that. Chris White: Yeah, that's really good. It makes me think of, I read a book a while back Radical Candor, Kim Scott, and I really loved in her two by two, I just like the vertical access, and she says, you fundamentally have to care about your people. You fundamentally have to care. And that means you got to build a relationship, that's the beauty with System & Soul. With all the years of experience that I have, one of the things that I always say is, look, we're not trying to be everything to everyone and we may not be for everyone, but we don't want to be a mile wide and an inch deep. And when we go and we break down the way we look at a business with the System & Soul side, we want to go deep on both and build those strong relationships because we've seen it. Chris White: We've seen what happens when you get your leadership team's EQ up and they learn new tools or skill sets that improves just the communication from department to department. But the idea is let's be an inch wide and miles deep, and let's really meet our clients where they're at and with what their needs are. And that's the shameless plug for your book. I couldn't believe it, the first time I read it, I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is what we all sit here and talk about, and you've done a phenomenal job, again, inwardly sound and other's focused." When I read those words and then when I got what they actually mean and the five attributes under each one, it was like this unbelievable. It's like, "Oh my gosh, this is what people need. This is what leadership needs." Tim Spiker: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate that. And just for those who may not be familiar with EQ, Chris was referring to emotional quotient, just for those that that may be a new concept to. As we begin to wrap up here, I have to say something that I just so appreciate about this conversation that probably I can't overemphasize enough. Given the things we're talking about, given the human side of leadership and business that we're talking about, I need everybody who's listening to understand I'm talking to two execution consultants. The work that they do is helping organizations get things done on a regular basis. And I think that's so important to understand, because there is this possibility that as we listen to this conversation, that might say, "Hey, Benj and Chris were great." Tim Spiker: It's great that they can be all about hugs and humanity, but you have to understand where Chris and Benj start from. We haven't talked about it as much here, but we start from the EOS execution side, which says there are specific things that our organization needs to do and so much of it is built on follow through accountability. Did you do the thing that you said you were going to do? And so I think the significance of what you're sharing here goes up a number of notches when we all understand and remember the background of the two of you. You're execution consultants, who over time have come to see and value and understand the soul of an organization and the significance of who a leader is that feeds into that execution. Benji Miller: Let me just clarify one thing as we're talking and thinking about what we do with System & Soul, and we have attention with this that we are struggling to maybe communicate, but it's not really system and soul as if they're two different sides of the hemisphere of our brain. The actual power comes in when we infuse the two together. And when we have soul, it elevates the systems. And when we elevate the systems, we can elevate the soul. So they've got this beautiful, Chris calls it harmony, they've got this beautiful harmony together. So it's not so linear of there's all this work and all this work, and they're separate. But the ways that we infuse the humanity into the systems and the way that we use systems to make sure that we're doing the things with the culture and the people that we want to be doing, that's where it gets beautiful and you create a superior competitive advantage. Tim Spiker: I'm really glad you brought that clarity, that really paints a picture worth remembering. I want to wrap up by leaning back into this idea we talked about earlier is that consultants are in and out of companies all the time. And so there's this real privilege of getting to see a lot of different things. I'll start with you, Benj, what is something that you are seeing that just has your attention these days as you're working with your clients, and you would be able to say to this audience of CEOs and leaders, hey, please keep this in mind. Benji Miller: I'm going to give you something super simple, because I think there's so much that we do that gets solved just by this one thing. And we use the expression, drive your car, and car is an acronym. When we think about leading people and managing people, we boil it down to car. You need to give your people clarity, that's the C. If you can give them clarity exactly what you expect from them, how you're going to measure it, the resources that they need, then you can give them autonomy. That's like Chris, what he admired with his Motorola boss back in the day, he gave him what he needs and he set him loose. Benji Miller: And then if we do that well, we can measure the results, the R. And what happens in a lot of organizations is as leaders, we fail on the clarity piece. So we micromanage on the autonomy piece and we feel guilty holding somebody accountable on the results, because we haven't done our job to give them the clarity that they need. So if it was one simple tool, one simple thing today, top of mind, I think that's got a million implications if you just focus on being a leader that gives your people that car, drive the car. Tim Spiker: Sure does. And the autonomy piece of that, it's highly motivation. Thank you, Dan Pink. That autonomy would come into play here, it's not just that people are off, but there's an energy that comes along with that ownership and that commitment. Chris, how about you? Chris White: Two things came to mind when you asked the question. And the first thing that came to my mind is I'm seeing these entrepreneurial business owners getting more confident around their people and more confident in saying that person's not a fit, whether it's on the front end of the hiring process, they're making decisions quicker. They're more confident because they're doing a better job. One, we talk about destination in the organization and these organizations that I'm working with, they're understanding where we're going, when we're going and why we're going. I'm also seeing this renewed optimistic mindset where we've been in this pandemic for two years, things are loosening up ish, maybe for some more than others. Chris White: Just like in sports, we practice all week, we hope to pull the team together on Saturday and Sunday to win the game. And then what are we doing Monday morning? We're looking at film. And so companies are spending the necessary time to look back, but I am seeing a lot of optimism in these small organizations where, hey, we totally identified plenty of sins, shortcomings, weaknesses and failures, but we have a new mindset around how to approach them. And it's collectively putting our arms shoulder to shoulder using the tools that we have and then just leveraging everybody's thoughts and opinions to get to solve so it doesn't happen again. Tim Spiker: Well guys, I really appreciate the time here. Let's make sure that people know how to get in contact with you and also let's make sure they know where and how to get your book. So share with them the contact information, the book title again, if you could. Benji Miller: You can find almost everything at systemandsoul.com. You'll find a link to our book, The Clarity Field Guide there, as well as links to both Chris and I. Tim Spiker: As we wrap up our time with Benj Miller and Chris White from System & Soul, there are two things that I want to bring a little bit of attention to. One of them is actually a repeat from something that I said during the interview, but I think it is worth repeating. And that is let's understand for all that Benj and Chris were sharing regarding the soul of an organization and really even the health of the individual leader, that they came to that initially as people that were coaching leaders and organizations on execution on the system side of the business. And so to hear them speak so eloquently and passionately about the soul of the organization, about culture, about people and even about the who of leadership, the health of the individual leader. It is so very important for us to hear that through the eyes of people who have spent their careers on helping leaders and organizations execute. Tim Spiker: The other thing that I want to draw your attention to is something that Benj said near the end, when he made the point to say, "Hey, you know what, ultimately, we're talking about the systems of the organization and the soul of the organization almost as if they're separate things, but they're really not." Now I'm able to see them on the screen while we're doing the interview and obviously with the podcast you can't, but I want to share with you what Benj was doing with his hands when he was talking about the fact that they're not actually two separate things, they're melded together. He was interlocking his hands and his fingers to say, this is a single unit of an organization that is made up of both systems and soul and that those systems affect the soul and vice versa. It's an integrated single unit that locks together. Tim Spiker: And I think that's a really important thing for us to take away and remember in the midst of all that they shared. That when we invest in the soul of our teams and our organizations, that's actually going to have a positive impact on our ability to follow through on the blocking and tackling systems in the organization. And then there's a multiplicative effect. It's like a virtuous cycle instead of a vicious cycle where that actually helps us continue to invest in the soul of our teams and our organization and around that virtuous cycle goes. So this is very integrated. They aren't two separate halves that get addressed in these very disconnected ways, but they actually interact with and intertwine with and influence each other day in and day out. Tim Spiker: So here's the question I want to leave you with today, are you as a leader, investing both in the systems and the soul of your team and organization? I'm Tim Spiker reminding you to be worth following and to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. 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