Claire David: Paying people a living wage and caring about them as an individual, a whole person it's basic. You have to have some of that for people to even consider staying when there's so many other opportunities, we have higher retention rates than the 2019 averages for our industry. Tim Spiker: In the time when millions of people are leaving their jobs, there's a reason for that. I'm your host, Tim Spiker and this is the Be Worth* Following Podcast, a production of the People Forward Network. On this show, we talk with exceptional leaders, thinkers, and researchers about what actually drives effective leadership across the globe and overtime. You just heard from Claire David, the chief people and culture officer at CareVet. Now CareVet is a network of veterinary hospitals that is anchored by a deep commitment to their teams. That is the teams that serve their clients and patients. CareVet's motto is: great medicine starts with great people and great teams. And for Claire, that's way more than a slogan, it's a key to how she approaches leadership and culture, what she's shaping their at CareVet. In this episode, she joins me to talk about her whole person approach and how retention is way more than just a paycheck, it's about creating an experience for employees. As you listen, you'll learn the importance of relationships and why you should hire people, not just employees. Tim Spiker: Claire's journey of course, begins with the leaders that were influential in her own life, so let's start there. Talk to us a little bit about a leader, or maybe there's a few leaders that have been really influential in your own life in just terms of shaping how you've become who you are to this point and how you think about leadership. Claire David: I've had the blessing to have a lot of really great leaders, whether it was starting off in retail and just the store manager that I worked under really took me under her wing and answered all of my questions and gave me a hard time and had fun while we were doing it, up to what I think about is really one of my favorite leaders that I've had in the past. For whatever reason, I got assigned to have him as my boss. He was an auditor by trade and really acting as a CFO type capacity. And he was responsible for overseeing me in an HR capacity. So we really didn't know how each other technically did each other's jobs, but he still made me feel like I was important and supported my work. And when you ask about the great leaders that you've had. I instantly think of Todd. Tim Spiker: Tell us a little bit about what the dynamic was like. And you think about when I ask that question, who's a really great leader that you've had an opportunity to work for? It's not a small thing that Todd came to mind. And so tell us a little bit more about the relationship, how it worked back and forth, what it is that made him so effective with you, from your perspective. Claire David: A couple things made him really effective. First of all, he was really vulnerable and would share about his life in an appropriate way, it wasn't a TMI moment, but every time we met, he would be really intentional and spend the first 10 minutes of our meeting asking me how my life was, how my family was doing hobbies that I was doing outside of work or volunteer opportunities. Just checking in with me as a person before we ever got down to business. And he would reciprocate. He would about his family, his daughters, his grandkids, things that were going on. He also was a really big baseball fan, Tim. We would talk about he was visiting every stadium in the US and things like that. It was great that we had... And he was very intentional about building a personal relationship with me outside of just a transactional I need you to do this task or that task. Claire David: And I think that really opened the door for a lot of other opportunities to grow and learn from each other, because then I trusted him and I had this personal relationship that when things got hard, you could have something else to talk about or think about in those moments. He was an auditor by trade and a lot of the work that he was doing was auditing or finalizing numbers. And so I often got asked to do those type of tasks, which I had no experience doing. I had no interest in becoming a CPA. I just wanted to help CPAs do good HR things. It was really fun because he challenged me and gave me opportunities to do things that weren't necessarily in the HR wheelhouse, but both how helped me forward my career and got the task done that our team needed to get done. Tim Spiker: I'm assuming that at some point during your interaction in terms of working for Todd, that there was some constructive feedback, improvement, something needs to be better, this isn't quite where we need it to be. So talk about this idea that you have a personal relationship that Todd is actively investing in. What is that like in terms of its relationship to giving corrective or difficult feedback. Claire David: He was direct but in a kind way. One situation is that I like to get work out fast. I love to be able to just be like, "I got this done for you so quick." And sometimes when you're not an accountant and you're doing numbers for accountants and you go too fast, the numbers don't make sense and they can see it like that. They know exactly what they're looking for and the checks and the balances don't work out. Claire David: And so there was a point where it was like, "Hey Claire, I appreciate that you're trying to get this done fast. And I know that you are trying to provide good customer service, but we need to make sure it's accurate more than anything. And let's sit down and talk about how I knew that this wasn't right, right away in ways that you can double check your work. You don't have to feel like you're redoing everything, but that you're slowing down and making sure the product is great." And so his willingness to sit down and go through those things or talk through what they're looking for in ways that I be efficient, but also correct, was really helpful. Tim Spiker: In the midst of him sharing that corrective feedback did you feel like he was personally attacking you or after you, or wanted anything less than good for you? Claire David: Nope. He wanted the work to be right and he wanted me to be successful and you had to have both of those things and you couldn't do that without telling me that there was an issue. Tim Spiker: One of the reasons why I asked that question is lots of times when I'm having conversations with clients, this idea of connecting with people, for some people they bring in at that point, what about the corrective feedback? What about the constructive, this needs to be better? How am I going to deliver that if I have a more connected relationship with somebody. And I find that time, and again, when I press into that issue with people who are describing the best leaders that they have ever worked for, every single one of them has a story where they were corrected and it had the best possible outcome and impact because it came from somebody with whom you had more of a relationship with, somebody that you were convinced... And you just said it, that he wanted you to be successful. It wasn't just about getting the work done, although, that was an important part of it. Tim Spiker: The work needed to be done well and it needed to be done right. But you also, as you articulated, it had a sense that he wanted you to be successful. And so that relationship communicated something much bigger than, hey, this work just needs to be done correctly. Claire David: Exactly. Tim Spiker: We're going to get into here in just a minute, talking about this kind of people centered concepts around leadership and around organizational life. And I think your story with Todd is a great personal example of how that plays out. So let's move forward now, Todd's given you a really great example of a leader worth following. And now here you are, as the chief people and culture officer for CareVet and lo and behold, all of a sudden here we are, St. Louis Business Journal Innovation in HR award. Talk a little bit if you could, about some of the things that you're spearheading at CareVet, where you're bringing some important leadership principles to you into organizational life so that they're actually doing something that we're not just talking flowery language about how leadership works well. So share with us a little bit about what you've been up to. Claire David: Whole person approach is really our philosophy on treating our team members and the services as an employer that we want to bring to the table. It's not enough just to give someone a paycheck these days, but really it has to be an experience. And so we try to look at things from a wide perspective and say, how can we add in opportunity and also resilience. We are continuing to expand that. We started with a living wage and a revenue share bonus, but we have now expanded that, we have a licensed social worker on staff that our team members can reach out to. Claire David: Compassion fatigue in the veterinary industry is really real. If you haven't, I would highly recommend going and watching a Ted Talk, it's a day in the life of a veterinarian and it is the most exhausting eight minutes that you've ever heard. Just hearing everything that they do literally before lunch. So bringing in the social worker, we are actually rolling out paid maternity leave and family leave. So paid parental leave for our veterinarians for eight weeks, starting on 11-1. So we're really excited to continue to push the envelope on what we can do to bring the whole person approach so that our team members can be vulnerable, but not have to spend energy not being a person while they're at work. Tim Spiker: It's interesting because so many times we as leaders can think about how do we have the whole person to use that term again, how do we have the whole person show up so that there's the greatest energy involved. And sometimes we forget in terms of that whole person, that there's more than the work that comes attached. One of the clients that I worked with put it this way, "We needed to find some employees and instead people showed up." And I think that really articulates the idea that we might be doing some math on how many full-time equivalents it takes to get a particular job done, but in reality, they're not FTEs, they're people. And so when we think about leading, we have to think about people. We cannot just think about how do we put this unit into some type of process or machine so that it produces a result. Tim Spiker: Because if that unit is a person, we have to keep in mind that there's a whole person there. And so what I really love about CareVet's story, and what you're spearheading is that you're systematically, intentionally investing in keeping the whole person in mind. And so I wonder as you started to share some of these ideas with the leaders there at CareVet, what was that like? Because you're talking about making investments of time, energy, and money, and I've never met a business leader that says "We've got extra of all of that stuff." The resources, no matter what they are, are always limited. So what was the process for you in saying, "Hey, let's put some systems behind understanding that the people who work here are whole people." Claire David: I am in a little bit of a unique situation, scenario here which is when I interviewed with our CEO, he was like, "We will be paying people a living wage next year." And I was like, "Okay, sounds good." I'm all in for that. That's the change we need to see. And I believe in giving people the value that they bring to the company, letting them share in that. And then I started... And it was March 16th, 2020, and the world had basically shut down. Tim Spiker: Which is just a really calm and normal time for all of us in the world here in the United States. Claire David: Yeah, super calm because everybody was at home, nobody was doing anything. Tim Spiker: So you're dealing with COVID straight out of the gate in your new position. Claire David: Yep. Day one, what are we doing to solve COVID for our teams? And it became really clear through those processes that we wanted to take care of our teams first, the whole basis of our company is that great medicine starts with great teams. And so we knew that supporting those teams was essential to how we wanted to operate our business and to have leaders that were already bought into that is major. But that doesn't mean it's not without challenges. We're not here to give away the farm and it's still a business- Tim Spiker: So there wasn't just a blank check that was handed to you- Claire David: Correct. Tim Spiker: Say, do whatever. Claire David: Correct. Tim Spiker: Okay. Claire David: And we got through COVID, we decided that we wanted to be really smart in how we spent our resources, but we thought that there was a chance and we proved it out that the veterinary industry would be a little bit insulated from this because everyone's home with their pets. And so we very quickly said, "Our priorities in this order are our people, our patients, and then our profits." So we still need to operate, but we need to take care of our teams. And we don't want them to feel worried about if they're going to get paid or not, if we have hours. And so we basically guaranteed that we would pay them up to 80 hours of time if for some reason their hours got cut. And then when families first came out, we said, "We don't want to do just what the government is promising." Claire David: So we gave an extra week on top of the two weeks of leave. We set a precedent that we wanted to be an employer of choice and really think about how our teams are impacted and that served us really well. And then about in August, my CEO comes to me and he's like, "We're doing living wage, now's the time, get going." I'm like, "Oh wow. We are just now getting COVID testing wrapped up and figuring that process out okay, but let's go." And we started crunching the numbers and we figured out how we could do things in a way that protected the business, there was still everyone's financially successful but our team members are sharing in that. And as we were going through this, I was like, "A living wage isn't enough." It's fine if you make $15 or more an hour and you have that resiliency in your life if something happens, but we can do so much more than that. Claire David: And I came to my boss and I just said to both of them, "What are we doing for the opportunity part for our team members? What are we doing outside of financial? You can make sure that people can pay their water bill, but when they're still worried about their emotional health every single day, you're not going to see them engaged with our organization or productive in their work. And so we have an opportunity to do more here and this fits in perfect, but there needs to be a bigger philosophy." And they really loved the inspiration because again, it goes back to great medicine starts with great people and great teams. Tim Spiker: So you have some folks that are on board with, what does it mean to create a culture here that people not only want to begin to be a part of, but will stay to be a part of. And as you continue to grow and develop CareVet with a number of veterinary clinics, really all over the country and growing, how is it that you've got a culture that you're managing and you're putting systems in place, but you also have new companies that you're acquiring and coming into the CareVet fold on a regular basis to put it mildly. So talk a little bit as a leader with people and culture, what is it like to graft in new folks and other organizations who frankly, they have their own culture before they become a part of CareVet. What is that process like for you, as you keep in mind, all of these systems that you're implementing and trying to recognize and care about the people that work for CareVet. Claire David: Yeah. That's such a great question. And I'm going to give you what probably seems like a backwards answer, which is I want to lift up the culture that they already have, I don't want to replace it. This isn't a rip and replace, it's not a square peg, round hole type of model. It is truly bring yourselves what is working and we're going to partner with you to help change the stuff that isn't working. We're acquiring existing veterinary hospitals that have amazing results in their community, they are staples of those communities. They have great reputations and they're serving their communities and their clients and we're not there to change that. We're there to make sure that they have the resources so that they can practice medicine. And so what are the things that we can do that bring value for them, just taking some of the basics off the table, but also giving them the opportunity to innovate that maybe they just didn't have the bandwidth to do you before. Claire David: And so I get the really unique opportunity and I feel so blessed to do it every day, it's inspiring to say, okay, what works best for you? What is your team wanting and needing? And that might be totally different than the hospital 50 miles away. And we find something that is in the middle that everybody can do or find something that's like, okay, here's the standard piece. And then let's add on the customization on top of it so that everybody gets their own flavor. But those things that have to be standard like progressive discipline policies, or how do you submit for PTO? They feel like they're tools to achieve the cultures that they already want to have versus telling them this is what you're going to have to do to be a part of our club. Tim Spiker: That is super interesting. And I think it's in the world of roll up and consolidation, I have to think that's a pretty unique perspective to say, what we're going to do is enhance the culture that you already have that's working. We're not here to necessarily just stamp out perfectly identical perspectives on culture and how a veterinary hospital should operate from a cultural standpoint. We think that you've got something going on, which makes me think that there has to be some vetting on the process in terms of who you choose to do an acquisition with. Tim Spiker: Because I got to think that there are some veterinary clinics out there that are turning a good profit, but when you look at how they think and how they operate, that there is some process, you're like, "I don't think they're going to fit within this kind of people centered perspective that CareVet..." Is it fair to say that there's a... Forgive this but the word is vetting there. That there's a vetting- Claire David: The vetting of the vets. Tim Spiker: Yes, exactly. There's a vetting process. That actually means that not every place would be a good acquisition target for CareVet. Claire David: Yeah. Our business development team does an incredible job for looking at culture first. I will tell you the hospitals that come into our network, there's something that each one of them have in common that it's uncanny, but it's not unintentional, it's happening on purpose, which is the sellers who come in really care about their teams. I spend hours on the phone with these business owners. This is their legacy, they have dedicated their life to this business, their blood, sweat, tears, weekends, nights, their lives. Claire David: And a lot of their questions are not about themselves, it's like, "What's going to happen to my team's PTO? What is going to happen to their annual raises? What are you going to do to make sure that they get the continuing education that I want them to have, but maybe I can't provide at the level that I would like to right now?" And I feel constantly challenged by these sellers. Like, am I doing right by them and their teams and the vision that they have. And those are the sellers that are coming to us by the time that I'm talking to them and there's no doubt in my mind that our business development team has strategically worked with those partners because our values align. Tim Spiker: That's fascinating because I don't know how many organizations who are doing roll ups across the globe are really critically driving their business development teams to look at culture first. Usually it's a financials first perspective and great on the culture if we can make it work, but that's a really unique way to pursue the folks that are expanding the footprint of CareVet. And just for the sake of everybody listening, just to clarify, because part of your model may not be necessarily familiar to everybody. But in most cases, the sellers, the people that you're purchasing the veterinary hospital from are veterinarians who founded that hospital in their community and built it up over years and then end up having to do, like you said, payroll, all of the other things that go along with a business, probably was not why they got into veterinary medicine in the first place. But in most cases, you're grafting in organizations that were founded by the veterinarian himself or herself. Is that how this normally operates and normally works? Claire David: Yeah. Sometimes they founded it and other times, especially in veterinary medicine, it's almost like it's bought associate to associate to associates. One of my favorite clinics that we have, they're all my favorites, but up in Wisconsin, it was founded in the early 1900s and they still have the original sign that Doc Shireman had hung in the clinic. And even though Doc Shireman isn't there and it's not the Shiremans running the business, Dr. Bradford bought this business from Doc Shireman and he feels just as responsible for that legacy as he would if he had started it from scratch. Tim Spiker: Wow, that's special. That's really unique. And what a fun story to be able to share in that, even though that person didn't start it, that there's this sense of responsibility and the sense of care about how that legacy continues and that they looked at CareVet even as a roll up and said, "They can help us continue to move forward even as we preserve this legacy." So it gets back to the preservation of a local culture that you were talking about just a little while ago. What a great example of that. Claire David: The legacy is everything. And I will tell you that was one of my biggest things. I was like, "We have to get a glass case for this neon sign. This is history and it's so cool and it still lives on." And we wanted to honor that physically and metaphorically. Tim Spiker: That's really great. As we begin to wrap up here, I want to talk a little bit about, I know that there are some principles around leadership that live behind so many of the things that you're talking about here, and one in particular is a Greek word that we have spoken about offline. I want to give you a chance to talk about this idea of [foreign language 00:21:42] what it is and how it plays into all these things that you're talking about in terms of helping to move CareVet forward. Claire David: [foreign language 00:21:49] to me it just resonates so deeply. I think you probably could guess from that conversation with Todd, I'm not necessarily an auditor or an accountant who can further all of his accounting goals, but he was just as invested in my success. And I talk to him often and maybe every six months we check in and he's not doing that because I can serve him in any way, shape, or form. But I think about things through his perspective and I am so thankful for his guidance that he has provided the entire time. And I just think as a leader, it's the best thing that you can do, because you never know where people are going to end up, but the impact that you can have on them when helping them and you get nothing from it, that drives me every single day, truly. Tim Spiker: And you can hear that in all of the examples you're talking about and just for the sake of us all being on the same page as we... Sometimes I get so familiar with the terms that I use, I'm just throwing a Greek word into the middle of the English conversation, but [foreign language 00:22:47] service to and care for others that is selfless, consistent, and unconditional. And so much of what you're talking about, Claire falls under that category and the idea that you and Todd continue to stay in contact. I will tell you that is a hallmark that I hear over and over and over again when I talk with people about the best leaders that they've had a chance to follow. Tim Spiker: Those relationships usually continue on long after the person is actually formally reporting to the person and I think what it speaks to is the fact that, is that the relationship and the care was genuine. It was real. It wasn't just for a season so I could get something out of you, but that is still there. So it's great that you got guys continue to stay connected here, years after you guys were working together. So that's really special and it speaks a lot to the depth of the relationship and to who Todd is. Claire David: I think it goes back to another little cliche saying if you're on Instagram, you'll probably see a little illustration about it, but it talks about you plant a seed and you have to water it and give it sunshine and it takes time to grow. And I think [foreign language 00:23:54] really speaks to that same methodology with people. You have to invest in them and show them love even if there's nothing to harvest for the first 10 years with an apple tree, you have to continue to put in that love to build that relationship. Tim Spiker: That's a great perspective, especially in a world where we want results as quickly as we can get them. And while we need to continue to work for those as leaders, we have to understand I think that sometimes, especially when the results are deeply impacted by the quality of relationships that we are going to make an investment over time, that the harvest may not be right away. But if we do that consistently enough over time, that harvest will eventually come home. But it's hard when we live in a world where Google wants to complete your search before you even finish typing it in, it's tough to be able to look at... You look at Greg and you say, "Greg, we're going to make this investment and it's going to pay off in the future." Tim Spiker: And all of us in positions with Greg would be like, "Great, by future do you mean next week?" And the answer is, lots of times the answer is no, but this is still how we build a great culture. This is still how we lead well, and these are some of the faith steps that we have to take as leaders and as an organization to build something really special. And I hear that's exactly what you and the team there at CareVet are doing. So I love that you got the Innovation in HR Award. To me, it's apropos for the things that you're talking about. And one part of your story among many that I really love is that as we get here to the end, we're talking about what the belief system and the heart is behind. You can create systems, you can create structures, you can talk about a living wage all day long, but if there's not something real behind it, over time I think the significance of it will fade. Tim Spiker: And what I hear from you over and over again, is things that are significant and real and genuine. And I'm sure that gives it a lot of juice as it were for staying power. Now there's one last thing I want to ask you about before we wrap up, I want to talk about turnover because the world right now as we're recording this, the world is crazy. The number of people that have left the workforce, and I'm wondering for an organization that is expanding almost on a weekly basis, what has this idea of a thin workforce and not enough workers to get things done, what is CareVet's story these days with regard to retention and being able to find the workers that it needs. Claire David: So we are living in wild times of the great resignation. And I think at the very basics, I think it just solidified that we were already doing the right things like paying people a living wage and caring about them as an individual, a whole person, it's basic. You have to have some of that for people to even consider staying when there's so many other opportunities. We have higher retention rates than the 2019 averages for our industry. Tim Spiker: Wow. Just say it again, because we need to think about this for a second. Claire David: Our retention averages are still higher than they were in 2019. Tim Spiker: So what I want to say to everybody, listening, considering everything else that you'll hear in this interview, there is a reason for that. That is not by accident. That in the midst of a time when people are saying, "I cannot find people to work." That you guys have exceeded your retention for the year before any of this crazy stuff started happening. That is amazing. I hope you feel... I mean, that's proof in the pudding right there. I hope everybody on your team feels the significance of that. Claire David: It's huge, but it also, don't rest on your laurels. We can't say, "Oh, we rolled this out in April of 2021 and so we're done." The work is never done, so what are we doing to continue to innovate and make sure that our teams realize that they are so valued and that we want to continue investing in them and their careers. And I think the flip side is we still need talent. It's not a 0% turnover so what are we doing to find candidates to fill those roles? And I think it really is thinking outside of the box. There are roles that actually fit in really well in our industry and maybe those folks have never felt like this was an option before. So I work really closely with our talent acquisition team. And I have an amazing recruiter named Leslie who came to us from the industry and she was a registered tech. Claire David: So she's done the work and helping us source and find candidates. And we were talking about what are jobs that wouldn't necessarily... You wouldn't think off the top of your head. And Dr. Thornberry also feels really passionately about this, you hire for the person. We can teach you how to do a blood draw, how to restrain an animal, how to assist in surgery. We can get you the technical training and the vocational learning that you need, but really looking at the person and the behaviors that they bring to the table. When you have people who are hard workers, who are comfortable in a fast paced environment, good communicators, compassionate. We can teach you the technical skills. And so really looking at the people versus the jobs on the resume if that makes sense. Tim Spiker: Absolutely it does. What you're articulating pretty much exactly is what Jim Collins wrote about when he said, First who, then what." Finding people that fit with the organization that have all of the perspectives and work ethic that you're talking about. And we can teach them the skill things that they need to learn. Those other things are not impossible to develop, but they're tougher. And so even as you have this amazing retention performance in the midst of an incredibly challenging market, what I'm hearing you say is we're still working hard to be in the talent acquisition business. We're not just resting on the fact of what we've currently done. So you're doing it all basically. Claire David: And that is the culture here. Do it all, do it the right way and that might be the hard way but doing it the right way, it'll win every day. Tim Spiker: So anybody that might want to find you or find CareVet where's the best place for them to go? Claire David: Www.CareVetHealth.com. We have a connect with us page and you can just select a reason why you want to connect and myself or a member of my team will reach back out if it is employment related. If you are a veterinarian listening to this, and you think that you want to talk to someone on our business development team, there's a business development link as well. And it talks about all of the different reasons why CareVet can help you partner, or if you're respective employee, all the things you can do to help partner with hospitals. Tim Spiker: What a great conversation with Claire, there are so many different things that I could zero in on, but there are three in particular that I want to make note of and the last two are actually connected. So first I want to go back to our conversation about Todd, one of the best leaders she's ever personally worked for, and she described how that relationship was built. And then in the end we talked about her receiving some corrective feedback that she needed to do a more accurate job, not just a fast job and ultimately where we discussed... And I think it's a really important point for us all to be focused on, settled on, reminded of, is that the quality of her relationship with Todd, that's what enabled her to trust him. And so I want you to think about the impact of trust when we're receiving corrective feedback. Tim Spiker: How significant is that? It's huge. If I believe that the person who's sharing something with me that I need to change, if I believe that they're for me, then I receive that feedback very differently than if I think they're just for themselves. And so ultimately Todd, through his interest in her and through his vulnerability, sharing a little bit about his own life, he created a relationship there where he could be trusted and he deserved that trust. I don't mean it in a manipulative way. He was genuinely trustworthy according to Claire's experience with him and so that feedback, that corrective feedback, you need to be accurate, Claire. That was received in such a positive way and so many leaders fret about corrective feedback. So many are worried about, well, how do I deliver this and how are they going to take it? And I think that should draw us all back to what's the quality of your relationship? Tim Spiker: Have you been trustworthy with this person? And that goes much deeper than just do I have integrity and have I been honest, but have I been for the other person. We trust people who are for us, not for themselves. Which leads me into the second point and this is a point for all of us to kind of look in the mirror and say, really, really what's the truth? And this was the part where Claire was talking about success. And what she knew in that moment from Todd is that he didn't just want to get the job done well. He wanted that, the organization needed that, but that he was for her success. Tim Spiker: So here's the question I think that all of us has to dial back and look in the mirror on is really, really in my own heart of hearts as a leader if I individually think about the names of the people who I am responsible to lead, am I for their success? Not just their accomplishment that gets the organization to achieve things, not just will they do a good job for the stuff that I'm focused on, but really at the base level of it, am I for that person's success? Tim Spiker: Do I want that individual to be successful? Maybe even outside of the realm that it benefits me. And you heard that in Claire's story that she and Todd continue to be in contact today. She doesn't report to him, she doesn't work for him, there is no professional connection there any longer, but to this day he's still genuinely interested in her success. And so when we look at ourselves and say, hey, how can I be the very best leader that I'm capable of being? It begins with at the core of me, am I a person who is about others success, not just my own? Because if I am, that's going to show up in the ways that I interact with people and even make things like corrective feedback much more effective because people are going to feel that I am really for the success of this other person. Tim Spiker: Finally, it all connects back into, I think in a really tangible way, and this is something that Claire is pulling into CareVet now is this concept of [foreign language 00:34:20]. And I'll go over the definition again, just so that we're all on the same page. This is service to and care for others that is selfless, consistent, and unconditional. If that's how I'm showing up as a leader, it leads to all sorts of things, including the trust that we're talking about just now, but you also heard it in many of the things that Claire is bringing in to the culture of CareVet, this ultimate idea of seeing people as people and that starts with a leader. That starts with a leader who wants to be not just self focused, but others focused. Tim Spiker: So in all of this, as we look at what creates really effective leadership, what we hear over and over and over again is that it starts with who the leader is at the core of who the leader is and we see this message over and over again. So those are the things that I think are really... I want to emphasize as we're wrapping up here. And I am so thankful to Claire for the great stories that she shared with us. So really, really, how committed are you to the individual success of the people you are leading? I'm Tim Spiker, reminding you to Be Worth* Following, and be sure to follow and engage with us wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.