Gene Keady: ... [inaudible] my dad was and mom. They taught me about love, they taught me about hard work, they taught me about how to treat people. So you can't beat those three things. Tim Spiker: Sometimes we make leadership more complicated than it has to be. Thankfully today's guest on the show did not. I'm your host, Tim Spiker, and this is the Be Worth* Following podcast, a production of the People Forward Network. On this show, we talk with exceptional leaders, thinkers, and researchers about what actually drives effective leadership across the globe and over time. Leading a team is an art form, whether it's in a boardroom or a locker room. This episode is the first in a two-part NCAA tournament, March Madness mini series. Tim Spiker: We'll be stepping outside the world of business to hear from a pair of exceptional basketball coaches about what makes a leader worth following. And I am so excited who we're going to do that with. The two coaches I personally had the privilege of playing for in college. First up is a conversation with former Purdue coach Gene Keady. Coach Keady won 512 games as a head coach. Seven times, he was the coach of the year in the storied Big Ten Conference. Six times, he was named national coach of the year. In a variety of coaching roles on the international stage, he amassed a record of 40 wins and two losses, including being an assistant coach for the gold medal winning U.S men's basketball team at the 2000 Olympic games in Sydney. Tim Spiker: Given all that, it was no surprise when Coach Keady was inducted into the Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame in 2013. Clearly Coach Keady left a mark on the world of college basketball. But he did so differently than most people assume. They saw his scowl and fiery spirit and assumed he won through fear and intimidation, but those are not what caused his players, me included to run through a wall for him. So what was it that caused us to play so hard and eventually win so much? That's what you're going to hear in this discussion. Even with a living legend like Gene Keady, we're going to start where we always do, we're going to start with the leaders who influenced him. Gene Keady: Oh my! The leaders that infected me is my father. Eddie Sutton, who coached at Arkansas. And those are the two main ones. Listen to your dad, listen to your boss. Tim Spiker: Let's talk about your father for a second. If I'm remembering correctly, your father was a florist. Is that right? Gene Keady: Yes. Good memory. Tim Spiker: What was it in particular about your dad that really landed with you in a way that helped to shape you? Gene Keady: He loved my mom and they taught me about love. And then he was always a very positive, never lied or far fetched anything, didn't drink. That was a plus. Tim Spiker: Most people know you from your coaching days, obviously, but as you were growing up in Kansas, what were the things that you were into growing up? I know that you were a sports guy, so you were a player before you were a coach and you played a lot of different things, didn't you? Gene Keady: I [inaudible] four sports in college, track, football, basketball and whatever else you wanted to do. Tim Spiker: You know what? I think a lot of people don't know. They might have guessed it from the way that your teams played basketball, but you were in training camp with the Pittsburgh Steelers at one point, weren't you? Gene Keady: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. That was a great experience. Tim Spiker: What position did you play in football? Gene Keady: Split receiver, pass receiver. Yeah. I led the big whatever in those days. I think it was a big seven, let K-State in past receiving when I was a senior. Tim Spiker: So you were a receiver, you got a chance to try out with the Steelers. Now, did you end up playing any with them? Gene Keady: Well, my wife was pregnant, so I came home and I got a coaching job. Tim Spiker: Got you. Gene Keady: So I needed to be home with her. Tim Spiker: You said that your folks and your dad taught you about love. Gene Keady: Well, it was an example. How they treated each other, just the example of how he respected women and his wife and was always very loyal and that sort of thing. So that's the way he did it, so that's what I did. Yeah. My dad taught me the right way to live. Tim Spiker: That's what the best ones do. Let's talk about Eddie Sutton. Tell us a little bit how you got started in your relationship with Eddie and why you see him as a person that really influenced you? Gene Keady: Well, he was a coach at Arkansas and he came to Hutch where I was a coach at the time, which had the biggest crowd from junior colleges in the nation. We averaged about six, seven, 8,000 a game. And he came and watched me coach a game and he needed an assistant. He asked me to come interview for the job at Arkansas. Tim Spiker: And then how long were you an assistant for him? Gene Keady: I think four years. Tim Spiker: What is it that you observed or learned from him in terms of what it means to lead a major college program like that? Gene Keady: How to run a program and how to recruit and how to do... Although I did pretty good recruiting at Hutch. He was a guy that knew how to coach basketball. He played under Hank Iba at Oklahoma State, and he had a great sense of a game. Tim Spiker: All right. You coach at Purdue for 25 years. And a lot of people will look at a major college program like that and think about it almost like a business, even though obviously coaching basketball and running a business are different enterprises, but the CEO perspective. And so as you came to Purdue and you're building a program, you're building a perspective, you're building a culture. What were the things that you were felt were really important to you as you were leading in this environment and trying to build a winning program. Gene Keady: Go to class every day, I'm talking about college now, go to class every day, be on time and try your best. If you did those three things we got along great. Tim Spiker: You know what coach? The last one there in particular. I remember because try your best, do your best. I tried to figure out a way around that one and I could never figure out a way around. Gene Keady: You. Can't. Tim Spiker: Well, I'm serious. Like it is such a simple idea. You're not asking me to do more than I can do. You're asking me to do everything that I can do. And then you could turn around and say to me at any point in time, was that given your best? I'm like, "well, dang." Gene Keady: Checking your whole card. Tim Spiker: That's there we go. Okay. Now I'm going to ask you about this. This is a phrase that I obviously learned playing for you, but for the uninitiated, what does it mean to check your whole card? Gene Keady: Well, I played card with all my uncles. My uncles were very close too with my dad. We played cards a lot. And if you didn't check your whole card, you didn't know what was coming up or what was going on in the game. If you check your whole card, you're always on top of things Tim Spiker: Over time, we learned that check your whole card meant exactly what you... you better figure out what's going on here. So I might not have been a card player, but I learned what that meant. But do your best. I do think back on that, I'm like, "it's so brilliantly simple," and exactly what 18 to 23 year old knuckleheads need to hear. Gene Keady: You know who taught me that? The track coach. Tim Spiker: Really? Gene Keady: If you ran track, you had to do your best or you're going to get beat. Every sport I learned something from. Track, try your best. Basketball, you got to know how to hit a target. Football, you had to be tough. So I could use all the three of those things in coaching any sport. Tim Spiker: That is reminding me, bringing me back to in the basement of my house right now, I have a black and gold placard, that's pretty big. You would hang it on the wall that you gave to us when I was playing there. And it was mostly about defensive principles. We need to make defense a Pavlovian response. You just do it. Gene Keady: Yeah I got that from Eddie Sutton. Eddie Sutton taught me that. Tim Spiker: Well, I remember what was at the bottom of that board. And I always found it really interesting. I don't know if it struck me at the time, but it does now that I'm a half step away from being 50 years old. At the very bottom, it says what the coaches owe you. And it says that it is not enough to just tell you to play defense. We have a responsibility to you to teach you what to do. And I find that to be really interesting. Say a little bit more about that. Gene Keady: Yeah. You can't just play defence. You got to know the fundamentals. You got to know what we mean by it. There's certain principles you got to use to play good man to man defense. And if we don't teach you the right way to play, you can't win. We have the obligation to do that. Tim Spiker: That makes sense as you share it, but there are not a lot of coaches that would make a placard like that. "Hey, players put this on your wall. I want you to see it every day." And put at the bottom, "here's what we owe you as coaches." You made a special point to put that on there. You also put on there, "the greatest among you is the one who serves." And so I just think that it's interesting that you not only told us what you wanted from us, but you told us what we should and could expect from you. Why was it important to express that to us? Gene Keady: I probably copied that from John Wooden or somebody. That sounds a little deep for me, but I probably copied that from another coach. Tim Spiker: Well it got my attention years later. But what you were expressing is that there was a responsibility of the coaches. It wasn't just on us as players. Gene Keady: Yeah. It was our obligation to do the same thing. If you can't do what you ask, you shouldn't be teaching it. So that was what I thought from that. Tim Spiker: All right. You have a pretty extensive coaching tree. I think about the team that I was on. So in our huddle coach, we had, obviously you were a Division 1 head coach. Bruce Weber, not long after that would be. Al Major he's assistant at Ohio state for some time and then he was the head coach at Charlotte for a few years. Then Linc Darner who isn't now, but was a couple of years ago, the head coach at Wisconsin, Milwaukee after winning a national championship at the Division 2 level. And then of course, the other two that are Rocket and Roland, Cuonzo Martin at Missouri and Matt Painter at Purdue. Tim Spiker: In that huddle, we had you Bruce, Al, Linc, Matt and Zoe. We had six Division 1 head coaches in one huddle. You'd think that we would've been a lot better than we were. You think that we... a lot more games. But that is a pretty amazing level of influence. So is there anything unique that you feel like was a part of the Purdue basketball program that helped attract and foster people who went on to coaching, especially your assistant coaches? I remember you saying, "I don't want an assistant coach who doesn't want to be a head coach." Gene Keady: Right. You got to have ambition. I just wanted them to be able to get a better paying job. So they can support their family. Tim Spiker: Let me play on the cynical side here for a second. If you encourage your assistant coaches towards that next step, then obviously at some point you're going to lose them as a coach. And if you really value them, then you're going to lose one of your good assistant coaches that you like to have around. Gene Keady: Well, I was happy. They were able to promote their own careers so they could make a better living for their family. That's what it was all about. And I could teach young guys to be better coaches if they listen. And that's a big "IF". A lot of guys think they already know it all, but they don't just like I didn't. I didn't think I knew it all, but I might have gave that impression. Tim Spiker: Now, I have a story to go back to and you probably will not remember this, but I sometimes tell people that I am one of the only players in the history of college basketball, and specifically Purdue basketball, to ever be blamed for losing a game in which I didn't play. Gene Keady: I don't remember that. But what did you do? Tim Spiker: So let me refresh your memory. Gene Keady: I remember I said this. To me that'd been true. Tim Spiker: Well, there's a really interesting part to this story. So it was my sophomore year. So we were playing Northwestern at home and they were not good. They hadn't won a road Big Ten game in a long time. So they beat us. And we got in the locker room after the game. And you had a few [inaudible] words for myself and Glenn Robinson, because here's what happened. Tim Spiker: Glenn was obviously an unbelievable talent, but there was one part of his game that was not particularly well developed. And that was his ball handling. So what Glenn and I started doing is, because of the ball handling situation, he would get a ball, I'd get out on the perimeter. And we would basically play a little game of keep away, for about two or three minutes, where I was just trying to be that annoying nap flying around just for him to work on his handles. Well, we did that every game, but you had not noticed that previously. But you noticed it that day. We got in the locker room after the game and you thought we were just screwing around, not taking the game seriously. And so you let us know in very clear terms, what you thought about that. Of course in the moment, neither of us is dumb enough to say anything. Tim Spiker: This would not be the time to address that. But... Gene Keady: Yeah, no excuses. Tim Spiker: The next day at practice, Glenn caught you on the side and explained to you what we were doing, that we weren't screwing around, that we were actually literally warming up and what we were doing. And one of the things that I will never forget coach is that the following day you started off practice by apologizing to me and to Glenn in front of the entire team. And I knew that you wouldn't remember that story, but because I think that's just who you are, but that's a very fun memory of me. Not because you apologized, but because it showed me, that's the type of person you are. Gene Keady: Yeah. Well that's what my dad taught me. My dad taught me that to be honest. And if somebody's blamed for something that didn't do it, they need to be told in the group that, "hey, I made a mistake." So that was simple. Tim Spiker: Well, it's simple for you, but how many people today in positions of significant leadership, either in athletics or in business would say, "I'm sorry I was wrong." Gene Keady: I don't know, but if they didn't do that, they probably weren't successful at whatever they're doing because people couldn't trust them. If you're honest with people, they can trust you. Tim Spiker: That apology's part of being honest. Gene Keady: Yeah, I think so. Owning up to it. I did something was wrong and I needed to tell people. Tim Spiker: That's a unique memory for me. Let me go to another unique memory. I was driving with my kids in the car and somehow I [inaudible] Purdue came up and my youngest son, they know that we won three Big Ten championships right after I transferred. They're aware of that. And so my eight year old son says, "daddy, you helped Purdue win three Big Ten championships." And I started laughing because he was to saying, you helped them because you left the team and they got better. That's what he was. That's what he was. [crosstalk] Gene Keady: That kid is smart. Tim Spiker: Yeah, he is. He is sharp. But that leads me to a story that... And I wrote about this in the book and not long after I was gone from Purdue, you had a renewal of your contract with Nike and you put into the contract that once a year, former players would get a piece of swag, a sweatshirt or something nice with Purdue basketball. And yeah, this was right after Purdue had won three Big Ten championships, right after I left. And I'm just curious, why did you do that? Cause that's really unique. Gene Keady: Cause I couldn't have done it without you guys. You're part of the family and Nike was rewarding me. They paid me a little bit to wear Nike shoes and they gave me equipment free and I just wanted the players to be part of that. Cause I couldn't have got that victory without the players. So I wanted to share it with the players. Tim Spiker: There are a lot of things coach that are second nature and common sense to you that are not second nature and common sense to a lot of people and especially to a lot of leaders. Gene Keady: Well thank you. That's a nice compliment. Tim Spiker: Well it's true. It's very true. Gene Keady: Thank you. Tim Spiker: One other thing as I'm doing this kind of little memory lane section here, one of the things that I remember is that we had a point of emphasis before practice that we talked about every day and what I tell people is once in a while it was about basketball, but... Gene Keady: But mostly about life. Tim Spiker: Mostly it was about life. Why did you do that? How did you get in the habit? Why was that important to do? Gene Keady: Oh, I had a coach that did that and I thought it was very, not classy, not for me but him, to share those things to help us learn about life. And I thought it was good enough for him to do it for us, it is good enough for me to try out with my players. And it worked, it seemed. I had guys like you thank me for it later. So it made sense. I'm pretty much a common sense guy. Tim Spiker: It made it an impression. And even if I couldn't right now, reel off all of the different lessons that you had, I remember that we did it. And one of the things, especially when you think about the role that athletics plays in the lives of the young men that you coached, you're telling us that there is more going on here than just basketball. And I may not remember all of the lessons, but I do remember that life is going on and that's bigger than just basketball. Gene Keady: Yeah, exactly. Tim Spiker: When you think back on 25 years at Purdue, or even earlier than that in your in coaching at Hutch and Arkansas and Western Kentucky. Are there any moments that really stand out for you? And it could be good or bad, that when you think back on your career as a coach, these are some indelible moments that I remember really clearly. Gene Keady: Oh boy, you learning from every situation. But I learned real early, you had to have players. Without players you can't win. I've been talking about good players, All-State type guys. Tim Spiker: Understood, yes. Gene Keady: Or "All American" type guys. But that was pretty evident right away. Tim Spiker: Are there any moments in coaching that particularly stand out to you as you think back on it? Gene Keady: Well, when I was in Beloit high school, my first job, we went to State basketball and I thought that was unbelievable to me, go to State, take your team to the State. That was a great time in my life. Tim Spiker: You just reminded me coach. We have to talk about play hard on the backside of every pair of practice shorts. That is... Gene Keady: I had to play hard. So I think everybody should have played hard. I don't know or I [crosstalk] Tim Spiker: That's like Purdue law now. "Play hard" on the practice shorts is the thing. Everybody knows it. Gene Keady: Well, together we attach something else we say in the huddle, remember? Tim Spiker: Absolutely. Gene Keady: Together we attack. Tim Spiker: Coach, the things that I talk to people about, what I do for a living now is I help them see all the things that you have been talking about in this conversation today. Because you think about how much X and O strategy we've talked about. Zero. Gene Keady: It's about life. Tim Spiker: It is about life. And what happens in business, the X and O equivalent in business is strategy. "Oh, we just have to have the right strategy. We just have to have the perfect strategy." Now what you need is people who are really energetic about following you and yet do we want good strategies? I heard Norman Schwartzkopf say once, "good people can make a bad plan work." I think that energized and engaged people can make a not perfect strategy work as well. Because I think you know this, we played harder than the people that we played against. Gene Keady: Yeah. I think I believe that. That's why I wanted to teach that. Tim Spiker: Yeah. Well, and I think in part we did that because that was the standard you set, but there was another part of it is that we knew that you were not there for your ego or your bank account. We knew that you were there for us and for Purdue. And so if the person you're following, isn't a self-absorbed ass, it's a lot easier to follow that person. Gene Keady: Yeah. We had a couple of those. Tim Spiker: Well, inevitably, over time. But the head coach wasn't and if the head coach had been, it wouldn't have been the experience that we all had. Gene Keady: Well, I had a lot of good help. I love my assistants. They were great. They helped me execute the plan that we needed to win with. Tim Spiker: You taught me coach. You taught me what open door policy really means because I was a little naive. I remember I took a shot in practice and I think you said something quietly under your breath, "why is he taking that shot?" And I thought... Gene Keady: "What the hell was that?" Tim Spiker: Something like that. Yeah, something like that. And so I thought, "hey, now wait a second. That's a good shot. It's a good shot for me." And so I decided you had the open door policy. So I decided, all right, I'm going to go walk through the open door. So I went in to see you. I think it was the next day before practice. And I explained what I had observed. And I was like, "well, I just don't understand why it is that way." And you said, "all right Spiker, if that's the way you feel, here's what we're going to do. We're going to chart every shot you take in practice for the next two weeks." And I think right in that moment, I peed down my leg a little bit. What I learned really quickly is an open door policy does not mean open agreement. Gene Keady: Exactly. Tim Spiker: So I was more than welcome to come into your office and voice my concern or objection but that was no promise at all. Gene Keady: It took guts. Tim Spiker: Well, there was no promise that the other side was going to agree with what you [crosstalk] Gene Keady: No. Yeah I found out that you shoot the ball quick. And I learned this very sudden, if you shoot the ball quick, or you don't have a good percentage to shoot the ball, two or three of the things happen. First of all, you're not going to make it. Second, we don't get good rebound position because we don't know if you're shooting it. And third, we don't get back on defense right, cause we're all scattered all over the floor, cause you shot it and we didn't know you were going to so I had some good reasons for it. Tim Spiker: So don't shoot the ball too quickly. As we get rid ready to wrap up here, I have a question that's a little bit more on the personal side because you gave me a chance. And I think that's really interesting because I wasn't particularly athletic. I obviously wasn't very big, but you let the possibility exist and I'll be forever grateful because it was such a shaping time for me. And I'm so thankful to be a part of something so special, but you had a number of walk-ons over the years, of course. What is it that allows you, even though you're at this super high level of Division 1 athletics and an occasional years, you've got an NBA guy on the team, but also to taking the time or wanting to have people who are not as gifted, perhaps. Why do you create that opportunity? Because so many places don't. Gene Keady: Well, I think it's to give them a chance to learn how to play the game the right way. I hope I teach it the right way. And you were special. Cause I could tell by the way you acted and when things you said that you were after the right things in life and that you didn't expect a hand out, you just wanted a chance. And that's pretty much what America's made on. So that was the story behind most people that are successful, they just want a chance so they do what they have to do to be successful. And that's the way I looked at you. Tim Spiker: Well thank you for that. And in the number of times in this discussion where you've talked about parents, if you saw something in me that you thought was good and valuable, that came from my parents. Gene Keady: Exactly. I understand it. That's way my dad was and mom. They taught me about love, they taught me about hard work, they taught me about how to treat people. So you can't beat those three things. Tim Spiker: Coach, thank you so much for doing this. It's super fun to talk about these things. Gene Keady: Oh yeah. Thank you. Good to hear your voice. And this is a good time. Thank you very much. Tim Spiker: There is so much for us to summarize and unpack about my conversation with Coach Keady. But before I get to that, I want to share with you one final story about coach. About five years or so before coach retired, there was a roast that was raising money for charity in West Lafayette. At the time I was living in St. Louis, Missouri. So it was an easy drive for me to go up. After the event, as people were milling out of the room, I had a chance to see Coach Keady. And he said to me, "Timmy," which by the way, Coach Keady's one of three people on planet earth that are allowed to call me Timmy. But he said, "hey, Timmy, appreciate you being here." And I didn't blow him off, but I very nonchalantly said, "sure, coach, absolutely happy to be here, wouldn't have missed it." Tim Spiker: And then he paused and he looked at me dead in the eye like a tractor beam and said, "no Timmy, I really appreciate it." It's been over 20 years that roast, but I still remember the genuineness and the sincerity in Coach Keady when he shared that with me. And it just really took me back. This is not in fainting humility, in terms of contribution to the basketball program at Purdue, I was, I am at the bottom of any list that you might want to make. And yet he felt it important to make sure that I understood how much he appreciated me being there. And so that underscores who Coach Keady is. And there's a line of events here that I just want to briefly play out for us that we saw throughout my interview with Coach Keady. And the end of the story is great results in this case, wins and championships and people completing their educations and going on to productive lives. Tim Spiker: That's the end result, but where does it start? It actually begins with Coach Keady's humility. And you heard that in a number of different ways during the discussion. First, did you notice that when I asked him about great accomplishments or great moments in his coaching career, he didn't begin by talking about Big Ten championships, although we did mention that, he didn't even mention being an assistant coach for the gold medal winning team in the 2000 Sydney Olympics. But he began by talking about taking Beloit high school to the Kansas State Championship in his very first coaching job. To me, that screams of humility for a man who's had almost uncountable amounts of success, that stands out to him. Also, obviously the story of about myself and Glenn Robinson and Coach Keady thinking that we weren't taking the game seriously, that whole story that allowed him to see and accept the fact that he had mistaken, what was going on. Tim Spiker: You see humility in that and him taking feedback from players, which not a lot of people would probably expect to hear from Gene Keady. So that humility allows him to see people, to see individuals, to acknowledge them. And again, I'll dial back to the story about the roast that I just shared with you. It allows him to see even the least contributors to what he's doing as people who are valuable and important. And when you're able to see people, it enables him and all the rest of us as leaders as well, it enables us to treat people right. And he talked about his parents having taught him, but there were so many examples of this idea of what does it mean to treat people right? Treating people right, is a whole lot more than not treating them wrong. Not treating people poorly is important, but the next level of leader goes that next step to treat people right. Tim Spiker: And again, so many examples, I'll just fly through some of them that you heard during our discussion. First of all, he cared about his players much more than just what they did on the court. And you see that example by that idea of having an emphasis of the day where he is trying to teach us things about life, not just about basketball, you heard it in his, his contract that he had with Nike, where he wanted to acknowledge the contribution of past players, even though they weren't on that current team that was winning Big Ten championships, he saw a connection point and wanted to honor them. You heard it when he talked about his assistant coaches, having opportunities to go on and get head coaching jobs. He just wanted the next best thing for his assistant coaches, even though it was going to cost him something. These are all examples of what it means to treat people right. Tim Spiker: And then one final one, getting back to the story with us losing to Northwestern, myself and Glenn Robinson, coach comes to the team and apologizes to us in front of the team. And then he said something that's very important for us not to miss. I was talking about leaders in particular, having difficulty accepting fault, admitting blame when they are to blame. And this is exactly what he said in response to that. He said, "I don't know, but if they don't do that, they probably aren't successful at whatever they're doing because people couldn't trust them. If you're honest with people, they can trust you." You see intuitively, for Coach Keady, he understands how critical trust is to being an effective leader. And that's the next connection point when we treat people right, just as that quote just pointed out, when we treat people right, it leads us to be more trustworthy as leaders. Tim Spiker: And when leaders are trustworthy, that is when people run through walls for you. And that is exactly what we did for Coach Keady. So humility allows us to see people, seeing people allows us to treat them right, when we treat them right, that enables them to trust us. And that trust ultimately leads into high levels of engagement, high levels of effort, and ultimately high levels of performance and results. Tim Spiker: So that brings me to two questions today to wrap up with, instead of one, the first one is this, what are you doing to treat the people you are leading right? And the second question is, in your development of the leaders who are following you, are you talking to them about what it means to treat their people right? I hope you've enjoyed this first installment of our March Madness mini series. In our next episode, you'll hear from the other head coach, I had the privilege of playing for in college. He's one of the winningest coaches in the history of Division Three basketball. And I can't wait for you to hear from him, but until then, this is Tim Spiker, reminding you to be worth following and be sure to follow us wherever you engage with podcasts. 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