Jason Ells: Imagine someone's journey, their entire career life, trying to find the perfect job where they fit, where they belong, home, if you will, and they show up a Custom Concrete and they realize that they've arrived. That's their destination. Tim Spiker: Imagine creating an organization where your very best talent never wants to leave. What kind of strategic advantage would that give you? Tim Spiker: I'm your host, Tim Spiker, and this is the Be Worth* Following podcast, a production of the People Forward Network. Tim Spiker: On this show, we talk with exceptional leaders, thinkers, and researchers about what actually drives effective leadership across the globe and over time. You just heard from Jason Ells. Tim Spiker: Jason is a senior vice president at Custom Concrete. Custom Concrete's primary work is pouring foundations for homes and businesses. And Jason does that very same thing only he does it within the organization, making sure that solid foundations of culture and leadership exists for Custom Concrete. Tim Spiker: In the end Jason's goal is to make Custom Concrete something he calls a destination employer, a place talented people never want to leave. But how do you get there? How do you become a company that consistently holds on to its most talented workers, leaders, and executives. Tim Spiker: In this discussion you'll get a chance to hear exactly how Jason and Custom Concrete are pursuing that dream. It involves culture, it involves leadership development, and it even involves vulnerability. Tim Spiker: When Jason started with Custom Concrete in 1998, his father was his boss. Eventually, those roles reversed and Jason's father was reporting to him. Tim Spiker: So let's jump into the conversation with Jason explaining just how that dynamic worked and what made his father an exceptional leader. Tim Spiker: The things and the people that have shaped you as a person who are the leaders that have influenced you as you look back on your career in life, Jason? Jason Ells: Well, Tim, there's been a bunch. That's the pretty cool and exciting thing is that I can go through from early childhood. My dad, obviously my grandpa, teachers in school, Sunday school teachers, I would say probably the number one would have to be my dad just from his leadership at home, as well as at the business that we both work at. So it's always been very encouraging to know that he's there and that, from a leadership's perspective, he'll tell me if there's something I need to do different. Tim Spiker: That's interesting because not everybody has that dynamic. And you look at your dad. I think for some people they're like, "Oh, isn't that sweet? He loves his dad." They are like, "No, ask Jason who was an influential leader," and he thought about it. And the answer was his dad. He tells you the truth is what I heard in that statement. When he tells you things you need to hear. Is there anything else that really jumps out at you about, "Hey, this is what makes my father a leader worth paying attention to." Jason Ells: Well, I've never met anybody that doesn't like him, first of all, because he can get along with just about anybody. And he has fun while doing it Tim Spiker: For everybody who doesn't necessarily know the story, share a little bit about the reality of working relationship. What does that look like? Jason Ells: It's actually kind of fun. It has its challenges, of course, because you know each other really well. But when I started at Custom Concrete, back in '98, he had been with the company for already several years. He was in a management role. So it was nice to have him there. I could just be really candid and there wasn't really anything to hide from him. And he was there to guide me through what I needed to know. Then as a career progressed, we actually did this strange little flip-flop before his retirement and that was, I became his boss. Tim Spiker: Wow. Jason Ells: Yeah. Tim Spiker: Wow. Wow. Jason Ells: I will tell you, I never had to once even try or once to use that card, but it worked out really well. And that kind of speaks to his humility and his graciousness there too. Tim Spiker: Let's jump forward quite a bit. And I want to start off with how you and I met. We were attending an online event with the People Forward Network a couple of months ago, and this is one of those stories. We randomly got put into a small group breakout of, I think it was four people, we'd never met each other before, but you said something in that small group discussion that just landed on me like a ton of bricks. And maybe it's a phrase that other people have heard previously, but it wasn't one that I had heard previously and it, so got my attention and I'm like, "I got to talk to Jason Ells again," and the phrase was destination employer. And immediately I have a picture in my head of what that means, but I want you to paint that picture for all of us to hear. When you talk about the idea of the organization being a destination employer, how's that defined for you? What are you after so that you are a destination employer? Jason Ells: I don't know if we can take credit for the term. I know that years ago was at a conference and there was someone talking about hiring keepers and getting rid of the people who aren't keepers. And it was interesting. And he, he said a couple things in there and I actually wrote down the two words, destination employer. Now I came back with a mission to become that. And I think what it means for me is imagine someone's journey, their entire career life, trying to find the perfect job where they fit, where they belong, home, if you will. Jason Ells: And they show up a Custom Concrete and they realize that they've arrived. That's their destination. That's what it means to me, is a destination employer. And I think it means a lot more than just good benefits or a foosball table or something like that, is there's so much more to it than just that. Jason Ells: And the interesting thing is, as much as we strive to be that we haven't become that yet. It's kind of like, I desire to be a good husband or I desire to be a good father. Well, you're always going to strive to be a better husband or a better father. I liken it too when you see a man on top of a mountain, you have to assume that he didn't fall there. And I think it's the same thing when it comes to a good company culture is that when you see a good company culture, you have to assume that didn't just happen. Someone was very intentional. Someone tried and they had a vision for it. That's what we're after at Custom Concrete. Tim Spiker: One of the things I really like about how you talk about this idea of being home and how you say, "Okay, yes, it's not just a foosball table," but one of the things to me, just if destination employer means I am home, it totally eliminates the idea of a merely transactional relationship between leadership, the organization, and the employee. Tim Spiker: Can you say a little bit more about the ethic that goes into leading an organization where you want somebody to show up and say, "Oh, I'm, I'm now home." Jason Ells: We've not perfected this. I can't claim that we've arrived, but here's the premise. It really does start with the why. Simon Sinek wrote the great book, Start with Why. And if you want to know our why, at Custom Concrete, at the very basic level, it is, we are here to positively impact and improve the lives of the people around us. Jason Ells: So when you start doing that and you get creative and you get intentional about not just meeting the express needs, but the unexpressed needs of employees, I think what happens is you start tapping into discretionary effort. It is kind of the difference between little kids when you tell them to clean up their room versus little kids when you tell them to go collect Easter eggs, it's a completely different energy, but it's almost the same task. Tim Spiker: This is brilliant. I've never thought about this. I'm thinking about this activity in my own house, nobody complained about picking up the Easter eggs. Jason Ells: And they were fast at it. Right? And they were excited about it. Now, there may be some elbowing and pushing and shoving people out of the way, but hey, you get all the Easter eggs picked up. I don't know if that's a good analogy or not, but I think that's the difference in energy is when you can tap into that discretionary effort, what happens is a process. And the strategy is not enough. Jason Ells: Peter Drucker said at best when he said that, "Culture eats strategy for breakfast." And I believe that's kind of what I'm talking about is there're gaps in your process or variables happen, or there're changes or some unknown thing that's going to turn over the apple cart. People who are giving you their discretionary effort will close that gap. Tim Spiker: Yeah, I think that's true. Norman Schwartzkoff. I heard him say one time that, "Good people can make a bad plan work." I think to just riff on that a little bit, "Energized and engaged people can make a bad plan work." Do we want to present our people in our organizations with bad plans? No. But how often are our strategies a little bit off? Most of the time, because we don't have crystal balls. Tim Spiker: So if we don't have the crystal ball to tell us exactly where to go all the time and we're a little bit off this discretionary effort to fill in the gaps really makes sense. And now all of a sudden, the really energized culture, it does become a strategy because it's the thing that overcomes when our plans are imperfect. Tim Spiker: Let's go further into that because the idea of culture is something that a lot of people are talking about. You and I have talked offline a little bit about the idea of good culture. Who's it good for? I think you have some unique perspectives on this. Jason Ells: Yeah, well maybe a place to start is who isn't it good for? And I would say, that's your competitor. Tim Spiker: Boom. We are all motivated now. Yes, that's great. Jason Ells: That's right. Tim Spiker: That's great. A great culture for us is not good for our competitor. That's solid. Jason Ells: Your competitor doesn't want that. I do have a hard time understanding who it wouldn't be good for. Jason Ells: It's obviously good for the employee because they enjoy where they work. They enjoy what they do. They enjoy the people around them. They're willing to give discretionary effort. So therefore it's good for the employer. It's good for the peers and the other people working around in the team. I think it's good for the community. I think it's good for the employees families. Think about from a stress standpoint. There's definitely a difference between something you enjoy to do, and it's hard, is pressure, versus something you hate to do, it's hard, is stress. Jason Ells: So the idea there is that if it's something they enjoy because of the culture they're in, they're not bringing a bunch of stress home, maybe pressure. Sure. But it's just difference. There's a difference between having all that pressure, and we'll call it stress at work. Jason Ells: But knowing that you've got a team around you that's willing to help and pick up and support and I can get yelled at, you're not going to get cussed at, you're not going to have water bottles thrown at you. It doesn't mean there's not pressure. It just means that you've got people there to help you bear that burden so that you're not having to take it all home necessarily. Jason Ells: And I'd like to tell you that I never take stress and pressure home. My wife would tell you something completely different. It's a game-changer when you know you have a team around you that supports you. And I think that's the other thing that from an employer standpoint is when we draw the lines on only trying to influence the employee, I think we miss an opportunity because there are opportunities to influence the family, the spouse, the kids of our employees, and a lot of companies haven't tapped into that have the spouse come to, when we having a benefits fair, and they're hearing about all the things that we're doing. Bring them in. If there's health coaching or financial coaching or anything like that, bring them in so that the whole family can enjoy the benefits. And too, it's an opportunity to say, "Hey, your dad is a rockstar. Hey, your mom is the best. She takes care of us." It's so good to take those opportunities. Tim Spiker: That's gold. And I'll caveat it by saying it's gold, wouldn't you really mean it. Those ideas to me are like a sharp edge. When they're in the hands of a criminal, I'm not excited about it, but when they're in the hands of a surgeon, who's trained for it. When you're in the hands of a really exceptional leader, exceptional organization, those little ideas are just so amazing. And they really do feed into family and feed into relationships in a really unique way. I love that because one of the things Jason, that sometimes we can talk about ideas broadly. But what I love about what you just shared is super practical. We're having a benefits fair. The family is invited. We engage with the whole family, not just the employee that gets us some concrete examples. Pardon the pun. There didn't mean that. I'll probably do it again by accident later on. Tim Spiker: Let me play devil's advocate just a little bit on the culture piece with regard to customers. If I'm kind of a harder core customer mentality, like your job, Custom Concrete is to whip your people into a frenzy so that they do everything under budget and fast. And I don't care much about what your internal culture is. So what would you say to that customer? How does a healthier culture necessarily impact that person who's just thinking time and budget? Jason Ells: Well, sometimes you just, don't try to explain to people who aren't willing to really try to understand. So first of all, it may not be worth the time or the effort to explain it. I would ask them. "So customer service is important to you." "Well, yeah, of course." "Quality's important to you?" "Yeah, of course." Jason Ells: Okay. So here's the philosophy on that. And, and this isn't mine, this actually came from the book Agile Engagement, but really what happens is when an employee understands intellectually what the purpose is, what the mission is, and they get it really from their emotions, they understand it with their heart. That will manifest itself into actions and or behaviors that move the company forward. Jason Ells: So what I would say is, "Look, we are doing this for you customer, we're doing this so that you have the customer service. And so you have the quality because we have people that care. We have people who are willing to take the extra step, go the extra mile, do the hard thing to make sure that you are taken care of." Jason Ells: And when someone says, "I want quality service, I want good quality." They're not talking about just a commodity at that point. So their mouth is saying something different than what they really want. Tim Spiker: Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about what's going on in the marketplace? Because as we talk here, late April 2022, the great resignation, as it's been called many times, is going through a number of iterations. And it seems like every month we hear another amazing statistic about how many people have quit their jobs and moved on to other things. But I'm curious, when you think about this mass exodus from the workplace, that gets talked about a lot, I'm wondering how is it affecting Custom Concrete? Jason Ells: The labor market certainly has shifted. It continues to shift, and we're trying to stay in front of it the best we can. We do have full-time recruiters on our team and they do a great job. We're training our supervisors and managers to take care of people and onboard people to reduce that turnover. Jason Ells: Interesting thing, while the great resignation was happening, our turnover rate was improving. And I will say, it's not all credited to what we're doing. I think part of it is our market. The construction industry never slowed down. We've been busy, we've been pressed, we've been pushed. So I think that keeps challenge in front of people and it keeps opportunity in front of people. So they don't have a lot of time to wonder what's next what's best for them, to move on, find another career. So that's, that's helped us where I don't think other industries can say the same thing. Jason Ells: So I want to be careful that I don't make that statement that, "Hey, all the things we're doing is working and we reversed it." No, I think that's part of it, but we saw it coming and we knew that talent was our most valuable asset to what we're trying to do. So we got in front of it with training and with understanding and benefits and all the things that I've been talking about. And I think it's making a difference. Tim Spiker: One of the things I hope everybody notices as they listen to you talk is you have a number of qualifiers with many of your answers. And the reason I love that is because your qualifiers, Jason, are almost always, "Okay. We are doing some good things, but we can't take all the credit for everything." When I hear that from somebody, I hear two things. I hear somebody who's committed to accuracy in what they're saying, because there are some other factors, but there's just such an integrity in that as well. Tim Spiker: But there are some things that you are doing. And I will say, I shared this on a episode here just recently. We're very selective in who we have be a part of the Be Worth* Following podcast. And so it's really interesting as we put a filter on the guests that we have on the show, and I keep asking them this question about the great resignation. And every single one of them is experiencing it at a meaningfully lower level than their peers. Tim Spiker: And I just think that's not a coincidence. Not that it isn't real, not that we don't have to take it into account, but that the organizations who are being really led well and thoughtfully and have more exceptional cultures, it turns out that people aren't wanting to leave those organizations as quickly as crappy cultures and bad places to work and bad leaders to follow. Jason Ells: I think it just makes sense if people are happy and engaged in what they're doing, you would think that they're more inclined to want to get back to work, not find another job. So it just, it does make sense. Tim Spiker: You and I, in our previous conversations, have talked about this a little bit and trust is, man it's a word that gets thrown around everywhere. There's no shortage of people acknowledging that trust is an important part of the equation to effective leadership in a healthy culture. Tim Spiker: But I would like people to get a chance to hear a little more specifically your views on trust and how that plays out in organizational life for you and at Custom Concrete. Jason Ells: Trust is foundational. And I do mean the pun there. I think Patrick Lencioni, Five Dysfunctions of a Team, spells that out really well, that without that foundation of trust, you can't go to those next steps that create a dynamic team. And that next step being that conflict, being able to say, "Hey, Tim, we need to have a conversation about what happened the other day and da, da, da, da," without trust. And it's critical. In any relationship, your marriage, your kids, your neighbor, whatever that relationship is. So, yeah, I think if people are ignoring that attribute, they're missing out on something that's pretty special and pretty dynamic in their company. Tim Spiker: So here's the $64,000 question. The idea of teaching trust. What on earth does that look like in organizational life? How could I teach trust? Jason Ells: Well, I think has to be demonstrated. You've got to create moments of vulnerability. Are you as a leader willing to trust your employees, trust your staff, trust your team with moments of vulnerability? If you're not willing to trust them, how in the world are they going to learn to trust you? Jason Ells: So I think you have to demonstrate it. I think too, maybe pointing it out when it's not there and calling out like, "Hey guys, I think the problem here is that we don't trust each other," or, when it is present, and you're going into a difficult conversation say, "Hey, we have a high level of trust here. Right? We can trust each other. Can I tell you something that's going to maybe tap into that trust bank account?" Tim Spiker: So, okay. I've got to have some moments of vulnerability with my team. What does that really look like in terms of playing out in a day-to-day reality within an organization? Jason Ells: Admit when you're wrong, when you mess something up, say, "I blew it guys, I didn't see that coming," or, "I didn't get that. We're going to have to pivot in a different direction, because I misunderstood the situation." Apologize when you've wronged somebody. And I know that goes against so much. So many people say never apologize. Well, I think you should apologize if you've really wronged somebody. And I think what it does is it creates a level of, "Oh, they're human too. We're allowed to make mistakes. Okay. Oh. And we can learn from our mistakes." I just think it's a real teaching moment. Jason Ells: I mean, if nothing else, chalk that mistake up to tuition. You got to learn something from it, right? So what if trust is one of those things that you're not just learning, but you're teaching? Tim Spiker: For most of us that does represent a vulnerable moment when we've got to own up, "Look, I dropped the ball there or I could have done that better." Jason Ells: One other way too, that I suppose would help with building trust is when somebody in your team does something really great. Don't take credit for it, give them the credit for it, and make sure that other people know that they did it because what that does, if people don't have to be defensive over their ideas or their projects, when they know that someone's not going to try to steal it from them. Tim Spiker: Great point. And frankly, unless our egos are out of control, and at times they can be. But when they're not, I just want you to think about, I mean, there's, there can be so much joy and effectiveness for the leader who is looking to distribute that credit in a real way. Tim Spiker: I'm not saying you're not going to throw a party for somebody who tied their shoes correctly. I'm not talking about that kind of over the top fake stuff, but what does it mean to somebody to have the leader step in and recognize them in front of others and say, "Hey look so and so did a great job. Here's exactly what she did. Here's exactly why it matters." Tim Spiker: I think for leaders who may not be prone to that, if you took a couple of weeks and said, I'm going to do that 10 times over the next two weeks, I think you'd be really surprised at just how life-giving it is to the leader to be so intentional about not taking that credit and distributing it. Jason Ells: Yep. Maybe a litmus test there on your ability to be generous is, are you genuinely happy when somebody else succeeds? Especially if they succeed when it's something that you wished you were succeeding in? Tim Spiker: Okay. So we've been talking about trust. We've talked about culture, let's talk about leadership, which has connections to both of those things. Tim Spiker: But what is leadership development? I know that at Custom Concrete you guys are doing some very intentional things. So let's talk about that a little bit in terms of how are you developing the leaders within the organization? Jason Ells: Well, there're several things. We kicked off this year, for the very first time, our emerging leaders program. It's part of our Custom Construction University program or platform. And we have a number of our folks from all different levels and all different age ranges and all different tenure levels joining this class and we're going through 12 months. So it's our 2022 cohort and they are going to graduate together and I'm hoping that all will pass, but it's tough. And it they're going to have to put in the effort. They're going to have to put in the time and it's not a guarantee that they will pass. Jason Ells: But the folks who are in it now have pretty much all demonstrated or expressed that they appreciate it and that they are learning and that they have tools in their toolbox now that they didn't have before, which is pretty exciting. Jason Ells: And the second thing is just recognizing or putting enough things in front of our people that will make them better. If it's financial literacy, wellness training, anything like that, putting it in front of them enough, and often enough, to where hopefully the people who are hungry will soak up as much as they can. Tim Spiker: I don't know that a lot of people would look at wellness training and financial literacy as leadership development. But when you think about the impact that those things have on the individual and how much more settled we are when we're in a well place, all the way around, including with our finances. What's the impact of that with the people that I'm interacting, that stress level is low because I'm making wise financial decisions personally. So it is part of having inwardly sound leaders who are able then to give. So I love that you guys are doing that. Jason Ells: We need to be holistic. You can't just take care of part of somebody. You have to try to take care of all of somebody. And I know that's not our job to take care of the entire person. Nope. But we can do what we can. Tim Spiker: Now on the Emerging Leaders program, back to that, how many people are involved, and over the course of the 12 months, what kind of additional time commitment are these individuals involved in? Jason Ells: I believe there's 16 people in the first class and they are putting in, we have one, three-hour session per month and there're four different books throughout the years. There's one test per month. And that test, it takes about an hour and a half to two hours to take it. It's no small feat. So my guess is with their reading assignments and their homework and all in, they're probably looking at somewhere, I'm going to say six to seven hours a month. Tim Spiker: Six to seven hours a month. So we add all that up. We go 12 months. And now if my math is good here, we're talking about up to so seven hours a month, times 12 is 84 because I learned how to count by touchdowns and extra points. So that's the only reason that I know that. So it could be as high as 84 hours a year. Tim Spiker: Now I think about some of the hourly rates that you're paying some of these folks when you break it down and the opportunity cost of that, or just, we're going to add that out on, right? As all of the responsibilities as required. So is there any hesitation on asking people to do that extra, or the opportunity cost of having them involved in those things? Jason Ells: The hesitation is more around them obviously not doing their job. If they're not in the field or at their desk doing what they're doing, that's probably the biggest loss to the company. I mean, obviously their wage is important. There's no second guessing that this is something we would pay them to do. But I think the biggest opportunity losses, these are high producers, and they're not producing while they're doing that. The ROI, I'm convinced is going to be there, maybe tenfold. Because one, they are now more engaged, two, they know that we care and that we're willing to invest in them. And three, this is a little bit of a proving ground. They're proving what they have regarding being a leader and proving to be able to dig in a little bit deeper and get through it. So I think for us, it's a win-win I think for the employees a win-win. Tim Spiker: So as we're talking about culture and leadership and a variety of things, when you kind of look out on the horizon and think what's this next hallmark for us as an organization? Where are we trying to be culturally or in terms of our leadership development? Do you have a particular picture that you're saying, "Hey, that's our next milestone?" And it could be qualitative. It could be quantitative. What do you see? What do you hope for? Jason Ells: That's a big question. Here's what I would say, "I want our company to continue to grow as fast as it needs to grow in order for our people to continue to have the opportunity that they want." I'd hate to get to a point where we've got great leaders, but nowhere to put them. If we really are becoming a destination employer that means we're going to have people wanting to stick around. Well, people want to stick around. They're likely not going to want to do the same thing for the rest of their lives. Maybe, some people want to, and that's okay. But if they want to grow into something, I'd like to create that opportunity for them. Tim Spiker: I mean, it says a lot of different things, because I think there's a kind of a chicken egg situation with that. As we grow and develop our leaders, if we believe that leadership makes a difference, it's likely that we're going to, hopefully, create new opportunities and the expansion continues. At the same time there is a little bit of a, "Oh man, we've got all these exceptional leaders and they've got to have somewhere to continue to grow." Tim Spiker: So when it comes to making these investments, what are some of the reasons that it's important to the people around, be it employees, or be it customers, to make these investments? What does that get for you and get for the organization? Jason Ells: This isn't about the bottom line. Some people can look at, "Well, you're doing all this culture because it's very pragmatic and you want to improve the bottom line." The bottom line is important so that we can take care of our people. So I think it's important for our people to know that. That we really do generally want them to be the best version of themselves. And at the end of the day, we have their back. Jason Ells: For our customers, I would say it's a similar thing. One, is that we're spending time and energy on culture for our customers because we want them to have the quality products and services that they require and they deserve. Jason Ells: And so I've gotten ridiculed over the years because we have spent so much time and energy on these things. And I've had customers challenge me before on why are you spending dollars on these type of things when that's part of the cost? And I guess what I would say is, "Well, proof's in the pudding, we're doing some really amazing things. And it's because of the amazing people. It's because of the amazing culture." Tim Spiker: There was good business case in what you just said, but you also started off by saying it's about more than the bottom line. For you as a leader, as a person, Jason, what is the more than the bottom line contribution that you are wanting to make through your leadership? Jason Ells: Well, I think, God gives us two very good commandments. Love God, love others, right? So I think that it's a very practical way to love others. Tim Spiker: See, I can't add anything to that, because it's so great. That answer, I think, gets back to the concept you mentioned earlier when you were talking about Simon Sinick and Start with Why. Is every leader clear on their why? And I just finished reading a book called The Inside Out Coaching and it's about revolutionizing the concept of coaching, especially in youth sports. And he asks the question in the book many, many, many times. Why are you coaching? And what you just said, Jason, I think you just answered the question. Why are you leading? Here are two commandments that I think are worthwhile. And so we see the impact on the bottom line, but I think everybody wants to follow a leader who is clear on what his or her why is. And that's a really, really great example. So thanks for sharing that. Jason Ells: Been doing a little bit of research on the characteristics of culture and there's five of them and it's pretty cool to look at first, they're learned, they're shared, there's symbols and/or relics. They are, it's integrated, and it's dynamic. Jason Ells: And when you think about any culture, this obviously goes to more people, cultures of people. But when you look at a business standpoint, when you're frustrated, it's probably because someone hasn't learned your culture yet, and you're not doing a very good job teaching them, or they don't share your culture. Jason Ells: What's nice about culture is you can pretty much expect how someone's going to show up or how someone's going to act because of culture. And when they don't act that way, you're like, "Where are you from?" Because they don't line up in your culture. Jason Ells: Cultures need to change. They need to change with the environment. It's proven in history that the cultures who've refused to change, die. So I think from a culture standpoint and in business we need to be looking at ways that our culture needs to change to meet current pressures and environment. Jason Ells: And when you're bringing people on, don't decide whether or not they're a culture fit decide whether or not they're a culture add. Decide whether or not they're adding in the right way to your culture, or if they're going to detract from your culture. Tim Spiker: What a great time visiting with Jason Ells of Custom Concrete. There are a couple of points of emphasis that I want to share with you as we wrap up this episode. Tim Spiker: The first one came in the section where we were talking about trust. And Jason made a quick comment regarding conflict. And then we moved on in the conversation. But I want to come back to that because I think it's so very important. He mentioned the book, Five Dysfunctions of a Team, which really gets into this idea. But some people have a real misconception about conflict in organizations. Tim Spiker: The fact of the matter is we need conflict. We need people to disagree in order for us to get to the best ideas. Now we need to disagree in the right way. We need to disagree with respect. But so many times in organizations, the culture and relationships are such that people don't disagree in person with one another. Tim Spiker: They disagree with each other, but they do it with everybody else except the person they disagree with. The conversation is not direct and what Patrick Lencioni teaches and what Jason was alluding to is that we need to have trust in organization because it allows us to have that healthy, productive conflict. Tim Spiker: So if you are a leader who has a leaning away from conflict, or it's kind of a conflict avoidant person, I'd encourage you to think differently about conflict. And I would say this as well, when you get into really trusting organizations, really trusting teams, really trusting relationships. Conflict is not as scary. Tim Spiker: It becomes a safer place to have that conflict because it's less personal. It gets more into best idea wins, as opposed to your good or bad or your right or wrong. And so I want to encourage all of us as leaders, to lean into healthy conflict and to understand that we've got to be really trustworthy in order to create space for conflict to be healthy. Tim Spiker: That healthy conflict's going to help us get to better strategies, better ideas, and better execution. Tim Spiker: The other piece that I want to point out came when Jason was talking about moments of vulnerability. So here, we're talking about how to build trust with your team or how to become more trustworthy. Tim Spiker: And one of the ways that he talked about doing that, when I said, "What does a moment of vulnerability look like?" He talked about admitting you're wrong. What does it do to relationships with your team when you say, "Hey, that's on me. I dropped that ball. I messed that up. I'm responsible for that piece. I made that more difficult. I'm the reason that we're late. I'm sorry." Tim Spiker: And so these are important things for us to be able to do. Some of us have a very difficult time admitting that we're wrong or that we've made a mistake. Others of you out there, that's an easy thing for you, but for some of us, it's a real challenge. Tim Spiker: And I will say that it's very difficult to build whole full relationships with the people that we are leading if we're unable to show that vulnerability, if we're unable to admit when we're wrong. Tim Spiker: So that's the question I want to end with. When is the last time you went to the people that you're leading and said, "I was wrong. I messed that up." Or even, "I'm sorry?" Tim Spiker: This is Tim Spiker reminding you to be worth following and to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. If you've heard something valuable today, please share us with your colleagues and friends. And if you're up for it, leave us a five star review. Tim Spiker: Thanks for listening.